Where do you rank Bonds?

Discussion in 'Baseball' started by Babe_Ruth, Jul 13, 2008.

  1. Babe_Ruth

    Babe_Ruth Sultan of Swat Staff Member V.I.P.

    Alright I want to start a new topic about Bonds. I was curious to know where you ranked Bonds on your all time players list before the the allegations of him using steroids came out? I was also wondering where do you rank him now after you know he took steroids to improve his power numbers.

    Also do you believe he was the greatest player in the 90's, if so please explain why, if not who do you believe what the greatest player in the 90's.

    Lets keep this thread civilize and not just reply saying, Bonds is a steroid user and a bum. Lets make some good points and good explanations.

    Discuss
     
    Major, Vegito728 and Dawn like this.

  2. SHOELESSJOE3

    SHOELESSJOE3 Registered Member

    Before, the years he was not suspect I had Barry top 12, maybe some where between 9th-12th. He was the complete package, only place where he did not shine, throwing arm, not bad but not on par with the rest of the package. Speed and power, he could do it all, had to be among the top 3 or 4 in my time 1950s to the present. His 1993 season one of the best all around 1980-1995.

    Although he has to be considered innocent at this time, the court of public opinion holds Barry and others to a different standard. My opinion he did use some kind of PED.
    I find it difficult to believe that any player could put up the years Barry did between the age of 36 to 40 with no aid from chemicals. Barry between the age 36-40 compared to Ruth, Williams and Aaron, those three greats look puny at the same age. Even if we consider the workout ethics of Barry all out he is still too far above any great in the history of the game at that age 36-40.

    Some numbers, Barry age 31 to 35 and then 36-40.
    --------------------------------Ba.-----Slg.------OBA------AB/HR ratio
    1996-2000- age 31-35--------.296----.622-------.438-------12.05
    2001-2005-age 36-40---------.347----.805-------.556--------7.86

    I can't buy that, the older Barry out hits the younger Barry at an age when most decline or level off. That slugging and AB/HR ratio, the older Barry off the chart. Not only that but he outhits Ted Williams over a 5 year period when Ted's age was between 27-31, prime years.
    Don't want to get carried away with a bunch of numbers but posted them to back what I think, he was a user. No hitter ever at that age over a 5 year period can challenge his numbers at that age 36-40.

    So I did have him ranked between 9th-12th but assuming he did use I now have him top 20 and close to 20th. It's so difficult to place an accurate range for him now, how much did the steroids help, how do we adjust.
    Really a shame, we should be celebrating the hanging up of the spikes of one of the greatest. Instead he leaves under a dark cloud that will stay with him, his numbers and rank in doubt. May be unfair but even if never proven that he used, how many will believe that. There are PEDs that are can not be detected. So some will look at his late career surge, his tie to Greg Anderson who admits to supplying some athletes but he says not to Barry. A fuzzy paper trail that may link Barry to the Balco lab.
    He will never be viewed the same way he once was.
     
  3. Funyun

    Funyun New Member

    The numbers Bonds put up in his later years were truly frightening. It seemed every time he came to the plate, he was going to do some damage. I live in the greater Bay Area, so I have had an opportunity to see him many times. He was the best player in the league at that time.

    Unfortunately, there will ALWAYS be an asterisk next to Bonds' name. Not just in the record books (allegedly) but in the minds of baseball fans everywhere. Until more evidence and/or an official ruling is made, we can only speculate as to the PED allegations. The evidence in favor of him using them, however, is quite overwhelming, IMO.

    First, there is all the physical evidence. Much has been spoken and written about Bonds' dramatic change in appearance in his later years. He ballooned in bulk which, he claimed, was due to a tireless workout regimen. I could believe that if his appearance reflected that on a gradual basis, but he seemed to just get huge in a span of a couple seasons, or so. There's also the physical evidence of his head. Look how large it became in that period of time. I'm not a doctor (I don't even play one on TV), but I have never seen nor heard of anyone's head expanding in that manner. Before and after photos of Bonds are startling, to say the least. Shades of Mark McGwire!

    Secondly, there's all the evidence from the players, trainers and other baseball people he has been associated with. I need not drone on endlessly about this, as it's all out there. Just look it up.

    Lastly, there are the numbers themselves. SHOELESSJOE3 has crafted an excellent post prior to this one. Check it out!! This tells you almost all you need to know about his hitting explosion at such a late time in his career.

    There is another aspect of his hitting prowess that can almost be considered 'cheating' of a different nature. This certainly bears mentioning when discussing Bonds and his late-career hitting eruption. It's something as small and simple as the brace he wears on his right arm, but it has contributed enormously to his ability to drive the ball. Bonds had worn a padded brace on his right elbow area for quite a while before the league banned them. To be fair, others wore it too, however they did not have a clause that grandfathered the use of the brace in their contracts, in spite of the new rule. They were simply told to remove it, which they did. Sure, it would seem to be as harmless as a batting helmet or a shinguard that batters wear at the plate to protect themselves from errant pitches and foul balls. It is, however, much more than mere protection. This piece of body armor allows the hitter to stand closer to the plate and removes all fear the batter has regarding fastballs up-and-in. Fear is a great motivator, and it's one of the few advantages a pitcher has in order to keep the hitter from leaning out over the plate. This arm brace not only takes away a great deal of that advantage, as the hitter is no longer wary of those inside fastballs, it also emboldens him enough to stand close enough to the plate and reach the outside pitches that, had he not been thus emboldened, he would likely not be able to drive with any real power.

    Think of it in terms of this priceless exchange between Moonlight Graham and Joe Jackson in the film "Field of Dreams'....

    Jackson: The first two were high and tight, so where do you think the next one's gonna be?
    Graham: Well, either low and away, or in my ear.
    Jackson: He's not gonna wanna load the bases, so look low and away.
    Graham: Right.
    Jackson: But watch out for in your ear.

    With that body armor in place, Bonds no longer had a great need to watch out for 'in his ear'. Oh, it doesn't mean a high, tight fastball won't come at his now rather large head, it just means that a normal inside pitch no longer concerned him much anymore and that that low and away pitch that Graham alluded to is much easier for Bonds to hit, as the brace enables him to hang in longer than most hitters to see if a pitch is going to break away, which is how the book said to pitch Bonds.

    Sorry to belabor the arm brace thingy, but it has been recognized by many trainers as a much bigger deal than most people tend to think it is when considering all the advantages (PED or otherwise) that Bonds had while batting. Do not overlook the significance of it!

    All in all, Bonds would have been a HOFer without the use of PEDs and other advantages, IMO. With those things, however, he is top five all-time easily, IMO. He is not given his full due as a player by many people, not only because of the factors I listed above, but because of his surly and aloof demeanor. He is not a 'people person' by any stretch of the imagination and stories abound of his downright meanness and arrogance. People don't like those qualities, for the most part, and I believe it has diminished the luster on his star even further.

    Okay, I'm done now.
     
  4. salsanchezfan

    salsanchezfan Registered Member

    Before the second half of the 1999 season, I ranked Bonds as one of the top ten players in the game and had him as a first-ballot Hall of Famer. He was very much like his dad in that he had great speed for a big man, tremendous power to all fields, had an excellent eye, could field, but never had an arm (which is odd, considering he was a pitcher in college and would have been a first-round pick in that role as well). Unlike his dad however, he made much more contact. Overall, he was top ten.

    Then midway through the 1999 season, he injures his elbow (was diagnosed with bone chips, I believe). When he came back, he was suddenly a more physical specimen of what I had remembered him. His head looked a lot bigger, as well as his arms, back, you name it, all bigger. I was thinking maybe he really worked hard at his rehab, and came back in top shape. The numbers were pretty much the same.

    But then the 2000 season rolls around. Looks even bigger. Hits lots of tape measure shots. Draws more walks, most intentional. His speed has pretty much vanished at this point, but no matter. He's getting on base at a .600 (!) clip. He walks 232 times in one season! And it was this way for the next 4 seasons. He made the game look easy. No one could get him out and if you did, you were VERY lucky he didn't hit one 500 off of you.

    But then at the start of the 2005 season, he develops what appears to be a rather non-serious injury to his knee. He winds up getting it drained 3 times, and when he comes back against the Nats, he's no longer the same guy who made baseball look easy and all of a sudden he began to look his age and play his age. Granted, he did hit 7 homers that September, but he batted .290, or something along those lines, and just wasn't the same guy.

    All of a sudden, pitchers no longer feared him. They began pitching to him and Bonds couldn't hit them. Then the steroid accusations come out, and it all starts to make sense to me. The guy was a juicer. Big head, bigger body, slowing down to the point of a crawl, nagging injuries, you name it. The roids turned him from a superstar player into greatness personified. Because of this, I feel he will not be inducted into the hall of fame and i feel he shouldn't.
     
  5. ChrisLDuncan

    ChrisLDuncan Registered Member

    Second all time. A complete player, two 200 OPS+ seasons before any suspicion, one of the few players in the past fifty years to have even ONE 200 OPS+ season.
     

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