Tyrus Cobb

Babe_Ruth

Sultan of Swat
Staff member
V.I.P.
#1
Alright I wanted to start a new thread about Ty Cobb, I was wondering what were your thoughts about him. A lot of people thought he was a racist, he didn't getting along with his teammates, some people he even think he killed a man.

There's no player out that that played the game at 110% everytime, he didn't care what he did on the field all he wanted to do is win. I won't like I don't know a lot about Tyrus Cobb, I know he was a great hitter, his lifetime batting average of .366 is incredible, he was one of the smartest base runners in his era. He won many batting titles and he was also feared by a lot of pitchers when he stepped into that batters box.

So lets discussion about the man they call Ty Cobb.
 

Wade8813

Registered Member
#2
I think Cobb's often underrated, and often overrated. Some people fall in love with him for having the highest batting average, and don't look much further. Some see the low HR totals, and disregard the rest.

Some people view him as the best player ever, which is a bit extreme, IMO. But until I met some of those people, I have to admit I drastically underrated him.
 

SHOELESSJOE3

Registered Member
#3
I think Cobb's often underrated, and often overrated. Some people fall in love with him for having the highest batting average, and don't look much further. Some see the low HR totals, and disregard the rest.

Some people view him as the best player ever, which is a bit extreme, IMO. But until I met some of those people, I have to admit I drastically underrated him.
Athough I have always had Babe Ruth at the top of my list as the greatest I can see others making the case for Ty Cobb.
Cobb had the reputationfor being a dirty player, I think thats a stretch. He did at times bend the rule of ethics in the game but the spotlight was focused more on him than some others because he was the best in his time and always worthy of some story in the newspapers. The game was different then, unlike today in general it was played much harder and Ty was not the only one playing it hard.
For a hitter to bat .300 or better for 23 consecutive seasons and .367 lifetime, that is some feat. A demon on the the base paths, when he got on base the other team was often thrown in to disarray, on edge. This also effected the pitcher because he could not concentrate fully on the batter, he had to worry about Ty on base.
In his career he stole home 35 times. On June 18, 1915 he stole home twice against the Washington Senators. Earlier that same season he stole home twice against the Yankees. April 26, 1927 he had 3 hits, knocked in the winning run, one walk, one steal of home, made a shoe-string catch and then on the run tagged out the runner who was trying to return to second base, that play ended the game. Notice the date 1927, on that day he was 41 years old.
Three time he stole second, third and home in the same inning, July 22, 1909, July 12, 1911 and July 4, 1912. In that 1911 game he stole the three bases on the first pitch every time.
It wasn't only his hitting and base running it was the fact that he studied the opposition like no other player ever did. He was the master of gaining any possible edge he could at bat, on the bases and in the field, any little edge that could mean a victory to his team.

He's certainly near the top of the list.
 
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Babe_Ruth

Sultan of Swat
Staff member
V.I.P.
#4
Do you think his reputation hurt him?

What I mean by that is that a lot of people will mention his bad attitude, his racism and all the other supposely bad things he's done over his lifetime before they mentioned what wonderful things he did on the playing field.

I personally loved the way he played the game, he did anything to win the game, he hustled like no one else. He played the game the only way he knew how and that was playing 110% everytime he step onto the playing field.
 

StroShow

The return shall be legenday!
V.I.P.
#5
Ty Cobb was one of the best to ever play the game. Although he was a son of a b**ch. He played hard, REAL hard and never gave anyone even an inch. But that was him. Love him or hate him. As a ball player, I respect him and he was really remarkable and played in a different era where nearly none of us were alive, so he'll always go underappreciated when that kind of thing happens. Someone like Babe Ruth gets more recognition because of his power from the plate, but Cobb defied the odds with those batting average stats which makes me think he's one of the Greatest players of all time But t's hard to make this kind of statement though, since there were so many great player, which makes for a great debate on both sides.
 
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SHOELESSJOE3

Registered Member
#6
Do you think his reputation hurt him?

What I mean by that is that a lot of people will mention his bad attitude, his racism and all the other supposely bad things he's done over his lifetime before they mentioned what wonderful things he did on the playing field.

I personally loved the way he played the game, he did anything to win the game, he hustled like no one else. He played the game the only way he knew how and that was playing 110% everytime he step onto the playing field.
His racism could never be excused but with that said growing up in the south for sure he grew up at a time when it was common. As a young child most likely he saw adults around him with those attitudes and never shook off that way of viewing blacks.

I'm only judging him as Cobb the ballplayer.
 

Babe_Ruth

Sultan of Swat
Staff member
V.I.P.
#7
I do as well, I don't think it was his fault that he was brought up in the South were racism was really high during his stay there.

But I believe when people discuss about Tyrus Cobb career they talk more about the negative things he's done then the positive which is ashame and personally I believe it hurts him a lot.

If you look of a lot of greatest players list you'll see people not even putting him in the Top 5 which is ridiculous in my opinion, to me he belongs at least in the top 3 in every list. I know everyone is entitled to there own opinions but lets be honest here, if you look at his stats and the way he played the game, he has to be considered one of the best.
 
#8
Hi Michael!

Haven't posted in a while. I will try to not be boring.

Cobb was born in 1886, Georgia. To be brought up in 1890's Georgia and not be racist by our standards was quite a trick. It was all around him. Georgia had been hard hit by Sherman's March to the Sea, and they 'lived off the land', meaning they took whatever they wanted, and disrespected any property rights of the Georgians.

That embittered them pretty bad, and unfortunately, the southerners took out on helpless blacks what they couldn't on Union soldiers. It would have taken a pretty heart-centered kid to block out all of that pain/hatred.

Cobb was always believed the best by those who saw him. They used a vastly different definition than we do today. Today, we are into stats. Back then, they simply called the best man whoever had the best skill set. Whoever had the best skills and the most skills.

Also, the tide started to shift to Babe Ruth after Ruth died premature in 1948. Also, in the 50's/60's, the US started to come to grips with its ugly racist past. And Cobb's racism was seen as more severely damaging that Babe's flaws. In the 60's, the Civil Rights movement gained traction and velocity, and Cobb took a big hit there. And when Bill James came along in the 70's, he popularized stats big-time, and Ty's stats could never match Babe's.

So, the stat definition beat out the skills definition. I doubt that can ever be reversed.

Anyhow, instead of repeating the famous cliches that we've all heard before, I think I'll copy/paste a post that Wesley Fricks posted on baseball-fever. Wesley is the most knowledgable person I know on the subject of Ty Cobb. I will always defer to Wesley because he deserves it. Here is what Wesley posted. Hope this is helpful.
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TY COBB Was Not A Racist!

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TY COBB's INFLUENCE ON BLACKS.


February 19, 2006

Dear Friends:

As I have recognized a need to present facts about Ty's relationships with blacks, I have enclosed some material that advocates TY COBB’s support for blacks and other minorities. This is to provide facts supporting the reality that the negative publicity came after TY COBB died in 1961. I also enclosed several articles, but interestingly, one that I found where his son, Jim Cobb, made the exact same assessment in 1977.

My friends, if you were to research the facts, you’ll find that Mr. Cobb was different than he is portrayed in the eye of the modern public. He was rich with popularity and writers could always count on his name to generate interest in their newspaper. Mr. Cobb was a charitable natured man who actually was soft for the minority, whether the minority was someone who had different colored skin, or handicapped, or someone who was less fortunate, or even someone who was small in size. He would always tell the little fellow who was standing in the back and could not get close to come to the front. He wanted to make sure they got a chance, too.

In the late 1920’s, TY COBB leased a hunting preserve with over 12,000 acres in MaGruder, Georgia, and built a house on it for a black man, named Uncle Bob Robinson, and his family to live there. In place of the rent, they would make sure no intruders trespassed on the property. Anytime Cobb and his friends were hunting on the land, this fellow, by his own choice, would always hunt along beside COBB. At times, he would entertain the guest with his story telling.

After a long day of hunting, they would gather around a campfire and talk baseball, or whatever came to mind. On this particular day, COBB had bagged twelve birds and had not missed a one (Mr. Cobb was a crack shot). Mr. Robinson told the story to Tris Speaker and the others, “Yeah, Mr. COBB had a bad day today.” What do you mean, Cobb bagged twelve birds and didn’t miss,” said Speaker. “Yeah, but he near ‘bout missed one,” recounted Mr. Robinson.

Present day authors have distorted COBB’s reputation to a point of the ridiculous. For example, in the book “COBB” that the movie “COBB” was based on tried to show that COBB hosted orgies and drinking parties. I have the contract agreement on the land and it clearly states that there was to be “absolutely NO alcohol on the premises.” This was at Major League Baseball’s Brunswick, Georgia retreat. It was called “Dover Hall Club” and TY COBB was 1/16 part owner of the 2,500 acre hunting and fishing camp. The MLB magnates owned it from the early 1910s until the late 1930s. COBB was the only player of the sixteen investors who bought into the $1,000 stock-leasing plan.

Mr. Cobb was in financial straits in the spring of 1906, but by the end of 1907 he had worked and saved his money. He began investing it in real estate in Georgia. In 1908, he bought 15 acres in Toccoa, Georgia and built and remodeled some of the nicest little homes, in a predominately black neighborhood. He named the subdivision “Booker T. Washington Heights,” and financed these homes to these residents for a minimal amount.

He owned the property until 1940 and he turned it over to his son, Herschel Cobb, to assist him with starting him a Coca-Cola franchise in Idaho. One transaction sold a lot (#22) to J. H. Johnson for only $42.50 in 1909. It was a relatively good price even for that era. There were 109 lots in Booker T. Washington Heights.

I hear a great deal about COBB’s racism in the present, especially on the Internet, but no one ever does or has actually have provided factual or even specifics about their racial allegations. If COBB had been a racist, some newspaperman would have made remarks about the specifics in some way. I have over 40,000 newspaper articles, and NOT one article makes any correlation to TY COBB being a racist. All the evidence demonstrate COBB’s support for the advancement of colored people, and yet, there is NO evidence that give any indication that Mr. COBB made any movement toward oppressing the black population.

Contrary, when Jackie Robinson entered into the Major Leagues, it began a slow process of allowing blacks to began entering into every league in the country. When the Dallas club of the Texas League was considering allowing blacks to enter, COBB was there to bat for them.

Ty Cobb, Fiery Diamond Star, Favors Negroes In Baseball
Independent Journal - January 29th, 1952

MENLO PARK (AP) Tyrus Raymond Cobb, fiery old time star of the diamond, stepped up to the plate today to clout a verbal home run in favor of Negroes in baseball.
Himself a native of the Deep South, Cobb voiced approval of the recent decision of the Dallas club to use Negro players if they came up to Texas league caliber.
The old Georgia Peach of Detroit Tigers fame was a fighter from the word go during his brilliant playing career. He neither asked for nor gave quarter in 24 tumultuous years in the American League. Time has mellowed the one time firebrand and he views the sport in the pleasant role of a country squire. He spoke emphatically on the subject of Negroes in baseball, however.
"Certainly it is O.K. for them to play," he said, "I see no reason in the world why we shouldn't compete with colored athletes as long as they conduct themselves with politeness and gentility. Let me say also that no white man has the right to be less of a gentleman than a colored man, in my book that goes not only for baseball but in all walks of life.”
"I like them, (Negro race) personally. When I was little I had a colored mammy. I played with colored children."
Referring again to last week's developments in the Texas league, Cobb declared, "It was bound to come." He meant the breaking down of Baseball's racial barriers in the old south.
Cobb expressed the belief Negroes eventually would be playing in every league in the country. He concluded with: "Why not, as long as they deport themselves like gentlemen?"

TY COBB did have an altercation with at least four African-Americans during his lifetime, but I have all the documents from these incidents, and in every case, the problem can be traced back to an action, not related to racism, that was committed by COBB himself, the black person, or a third party, that cause the issue to escalate into an altercation. I am not going to discourse tediously on who was at fault in either of the incidents because I only want to exhibit that there was a reason that the incidents happened that had nothing to do with color. And I must mention that COBB’s incidents with whites far exceed the number of occurrences with the blacks.

TY COBB was not a racist, he did not sharpen his spikes to slash other players just to steal a base, he did not kill a man in Detroit as alleged by recent nickel writers, and he did not live the life of a bigot. Contrary to those myths, TY COBB exerted a kindness toward blacks. One of his fondest memories of his youth was being taught how to swim by a black laborer named, Uncle Ezra. Ezra would get young TY to cling to his neck and wade out into the middle of the river or stream. At this point, TY would be released and forced to swim back to the riverbank.

Blacks lived in COBB’s house behind his home on Williams Street there in Augusta. COBB employed blacks the whole time he lived on the “Hill”. Emaline Cosey lived with and worked for TY COBB in 1920.

Jimmy Lanier grew up in Augusta with one of TY COBB’s sons. Jimmy has told a story many times about him and Herschel going to the Rialto Theater in downtown Augusta to see one of them shoot’em up movies. “We came out of the theater and Mr. Cobb, like a father, was waiting on the other side of the road,” claimed Lanier. “As we were getting into the car, Mr. Cobb overheard the owner of a nearby restaurant explaining to a man dressed in shabby clothes how to get to the Linwood Hospital – a veterans hospital. Mr. Cobb interrupts and says, ‘Son, I’ll take you there.’

“The man stood on the running board of Mr. Cobb’s La Salle coupe, and they were talking back and forth, and this man was a veteran of World War I. When they pulled up to the gate at the Linwood Hospital, I saw Mr. Cobb hand this man a $20 bill. Herschel was looking off at somewhere else, but I saw what Mr. Cobb done. It was incidents like this that never made it to the press,” concluded Lanier.

Friends, I believe that one of Mr. Cobb’s problems was that he never looked for credit for anything that he done. He could never boast of his philanthropic nature that would put celebrities like Babe Ruth or Joe DiMaggio riding on the crest of publicity. And two, he never refuted accusation against him publicly. If someone alleged that he had spiked another player intentionally, he gave an explanation only to the person or people that it mattered to most, like owner of the Tigers or President of the American League, but very seldom to the press. If he would have stood up and said to people, “You are wrong” or “That is not true,” maybe these present day authors would have had less room to reinvent his reputation to their own liking.

TY COBB was a close associate to the 2nd Commissioner of baseball, Albert B. “Happy” Chandler, who was head of the baseball realm when Jackie Robinson entered into Major League baseball. COBB was a big supporter of Chandler. In a press interview on August th, 1950, COBB shared his support for Chandler, “So far, Chandler has lived up to everything that I thought he could do as a commissioner. To me, every one of his decisions have been fair.” The article goes on explaining COBB’s support for “Happy.” Three years later, he was elected to serve as member of the Board of Trustees of the COBB Educational Foundation.

The Foundation contributed $2,800.00 in scholarships the first year. Fifty years later the annual grants have reached well over a $500,000 dollars. As of July 2003, the Foundation has provided scholarships to 6,876 students, equaling 9,743,000 dollars.

Thanks to his charitable nature, Ty Cobb has made it possible for thousands of students of Georgia to achieve a higher mark in education. There is no limit to what this Foundation can provide to future students who truly want an education. One thing is certain; it is bound to generate a winning team of students in this great state of Georgia.

And as I mention frequently, I could go on forever talking about great things that Mr. COBB did to enrich the lives of other people. He did this without any expectations from the recipient or others who witnessed his philanthropic deeds. In an interview in the mid 1950s, Mr. COBB made this statement, “You’ve ask me about this Cobb Educational Fund, and now I’m going to have to answer it. I do not wish to be eulogized for what I have done. I’m proud of it, yes. This Educational Fund has given me the greatest possible happiness and pleasure, and maybe when I’m gone we’ll have some real great men developed out of the Cobb Educational Foundation.”

The TY COBB Healthcare Systems, Inc provide jobs to thousands of healthcare professionals in northeast Georgia, and I know personally, and young black fellow that I went to school with who works for the healthcare system and has made a huge impact on the community. He got his start at the COBB Memorial Hospital and now is a providing much leadership in the direction of the city.

TY COBB’s father was a Georgia State Senator from the 31st District who voted against a bill introduced and approved by the Senate that allowed taxes deriving only from black properties to finance the black schools. This was in 1900. He stated in the Atlanta Constitution that the “Negroes had done, and were doing a good deal for the up building of the state, and I am in favor of allowing them money for education.” He believed that the race should be protected from class legislation.
TY COBB set more records in baseball than any other player. He was the first player inducted into baseball’s Hall of Fame in 1936. He was the most celebrated athlete in baseball’s history.

In 1950, COBB dedicated the new hospital in Royston, Georgia to provide medical attention to the region. In Dr. J. B. Gilbert, COBB found one of the finest African-American doctors to serve the black population, and this was before desegregation. Dr. Gilbert also serviced white patients and later became Chief of Staff at the COBB Memorial Hospital (See photo below). Dr. Gilbert’s daughter remembers TY COBB visiting the home when she was just a young lady. COBB signed baseballs for all three of Dr. Gilbert’s grandchildren.

In 1953, COBB established the TY COBB Educational Foundation to give scholarships to needy students in Georgia. Hundreds and hundreds of young black students have become a beneficiary of this educational fund.

Alexander George Washington Rivers was a black employee of COBB for 18 years and named his first-born Ty Cobb Rivers, “Even if it would have been a gal, Ah would have named her the same,” Rivers relayed to his friends in an interview with The Detroit News. Rivers served as COBB’s batboy, chauffeur, general handyman, and was an avid supporter of the famed “Georgia Peach.”

After 22 seasons with Detroit, COBB joined the Philadelphia Athletics to finish out his twenty-four year career. Rivers followed COBB, “I wasn’t exactly against the Tigers, but I still had to be for Mr. Ty.”

TY COBB’s racial reputation came only after he had died in 1961. Racial reform should not be fought at the expense of a man who helped make Baseball a great sport for colored people to enjoy, too.

COBB loved Augusta! He did not just live there for a while – it was his home. He raised all of his children there. He lived at 2425 William Street in the Summerville district. He held common and preferred stock in the Augusta Chronicle. He sold Hawkeye trucks there in the Augusta area. He was president and principle owner of the TY COBB Tire Co. on Broad Street. He owned the TY COBB Beverage Co. who had their office at 313 in the Leonard Building. He was one of three principle owners in the City Bank of Thomson. He hunted and fished in all parts of the Augusta area and even down the Savannah River. He was on the Board of Directors of the First National Bank in Lavonia, Georgia for all his professional life.

He coached and umpired some at the Richmond County YMCA and in the Nehi League. He entered his girls into beauty pageants, horse shows and musical recitals. He helped the city authorities host outside guest. When a large group of Philadelphia businessmen came to Augusta, COBB participated in a first-of-its-kind aeroplane golf tournament for the visiting spectators. COBB owned a great deal of property in the city.

One piece of land was 444.72 acres south of Spirit Creek and the Augusta Orphan Asylum. Mr. COBB owned the properties on the east side of Tuttle, between Fenwick and Jenkins Streets; corner of Broad and Seventh (McIntosh); ten acres, five miles out on old Milledgeville Rd.; two lots on the corner of Druid Park and Gwinnett Street; southwest corner of Twiggs and Boyd’s Alley containing five lots; four lots close to the corner of Phillip Street and Walton Way; and the COBB’s property list goes on and on. Looking over the Richmond County Court documents, it appears to me that in some cases COBB loaned money to help prevent foreclosure on some of the properties.

He lived adjacent to a dentist that started the South Atlantic League back up after it shutdown during the depression. Eugene Wilder worked as secretary to the Mayor of Augusta for many years, and was an admirer of COBB’s. When COBB entered the United States Army in 1918, he left Dr. Wilder instructions and money he had set aside for his famous prize dog, “Cobb’s Hall,” in case he failed to return from the war. COBB served as a Captain in the Chemical Warfare Division over in France at the close of the war.

COBB also became part owner of the Augusta Tourist in 1922. The team name was later changed to Augusta Tygers to honor COBB. He developed many young athletes into strong competitors. He managed the Detroit Tigers from 1921-1926, and during that time, a Detroit batter won the batting title 4 out of 6 years. He was a great teacher, and loved to devote his time to helping others advance.

TY COBB was always concerned about the advancement of the city of Augusta. He was always striving to promote and stimulate the city’s economy. He donated his vehicle to the fire station to be auctioned off. He owned numerous businesses in Augusta and drew people of every nature to the city. He once hosted the sole owner of the Diamond Tire Company who came down from up north. There were a couple of Presidents of the United States that COBB became acquainted with on the streets of Augusta.

In closing, I just want to say that all these little things add up to give us plenty of reason to say that COBB deserves being memorialized with a stadium. Especially from his home city, a place that he helped to make a wonderful place to live and work. If the people of Augusta do not want COBB’s name on the Olmstead Stadium, that's up to them – I don’t live there. But I can’t sit an allow people to say such negative remarks such as “COBB was a racist” without at least trying to educate the public on the absolute truth.

I would hope that if there is this much of an issue in naming the stadium, period, then it might be apprehended that there is a greater force that is calling us to name the facility “COBB MEMORIAL STADIUM,” or something that would commemorate the great Georgia athlete. “GEORGIA PEACH STADIUM” may be a happy medium that would satisfy both sides of the debate.

At any rate, my position is only to educate and pass on the information that is sometimes forgotten or unknown. I hope that I have provided you with enough information that it may give you a different perspective on who TY COBB really was. I have enclosed different passages and material that you can read and see more aspects of TY COBB and his legacy. This is only a speck in the sand of the material that I possess on this great athlete. I would be happy to assist you or your colleagues in any capacity should that be your desire. I hope that you will be enlightened and receptive to this information, and I hope that it will assist everyone in the reconstruction of his or her opinion of TY COBB. I want to leave you with words straight from TY COBB’s own personality, “I like them, personally. When I was little I had a colored Mammy. I played with colored children.”

Sincerely,
Wesley Fricks
TY COBB Historian

I hope you all will address whatever Ty questions to him that I couldn't address to your satisfaction. He is also familiar with the deadball era of baseball.
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Wesley's Bio:

John Wesley Fricks was born in Atlanta February 3, 1971 and moved to Royston, Georgia in 1974. He grew up on COBB St., one block away from the old COBB home place.

He got involved on the ground floor of the creation of the TY COBB Museum in January 1998. Wesley worked six months with Museum Director and Planning and Development Committee to establish this memorial to baseball’s most celebrated athlete. He was slated to be the Keynote Speaker at the opening ceremonies on July 17th until Phil Neikro’s services was secured. It was the year Neikro was inducted into baseball’s Hall of Fame.

He continued to work with the new Committee established, the TY COBB Advisory Committee, to continue to upgrade and enhance the material inside the Museum. Just last year, the TY COBB Educational Foundation was celebrating fifty years of giving scholarships to needy Georgia students. They were interested in getting a display in our Museum. Wesley was asked to work with a team to provide this outlet for the TCEF to get some exposure. He was asked to write a video script with only three days to get it done. He scored and scored big with his creation of the TCEF DVD video that is a wonderful addition to the Museum.

Wesley was the keynote speaker at the Museum’s October 2003 unveiling of the TCEF display. He also designed the baseball card that was released on the same day. His contribution to the TY COBB Museum has been tireless and energetic.

Wesley has been a pillar of strength for TY COBB’s legacy over the last decade, participating in baseball symposiums, television shows, and was even asked by Major League Baseball Productions for an interview at Turner Field in Atlanta to be on Baseball’s All-Century Team video in 1999. He was interviewed again at Turner Field in 2002 for Turner South’s Liars & Legends show that featured TY COBB.

Wesley has continued to do follow up with people from all over the country who contact the Museum for various purposes. His professionalism and knowledge of Ty Cobb baseball during that era has made a significant impact on what we do here at the Museum.

TY COBB Museum
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Since this site doesn't allow for posting of photos, here is a link to this post on Fever, and you can see 2 very nice photos of Ty with black people. I hope this brief post helps assist those who have suffered from a lack of discerning historical research on this remarkable man, and great person.

Baseball Fever - View Single Post - Ty Cobb Thread

In fact, here is a link to my Ty Cobb Thread.
Ty Cobb Thread - Baseball Fever

And here is another link to my personal webpage.
The Baseball Guru - Cobb's World Series Performance and Comparisons by Bill Burgess

Best regards to everyone here on this absolutely wonderful, educational website!!

Cheers!

Bill