To put it bluntly: Who's Side Are You On?

Boredie

In need of Entertainment
#1
Regarding the conflict in the middle east.
Your thoughts are welcome.
Please watch both to comment.

This one in "favour" of Arabs
YouTube - Palestine, Gaza .. and the Israeli crimes -We will not go down- ?????? ???


This one is in "favour" of Israel
YouTube - Israel is a victim of Palestinian Terrorism & Islamic Jihad


Edit: Before I read any responses, I want to say that I changed the title of the thread, since the word victim was stuck in my mind after watching the videos, but what I really want to know from you is what is your stance on the whole issue.
Is Israel in her right or wrong? Have the Palestinians really been wrong footed or are they trying to completely get rid of the state of Israel?
 
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Bananas

Endangered Species
#2
Both parties are a victim to each others heinous crimes. To have victims you must have villains. The villains are;

Palestine for using terror tactics and the continuous use of its non-forgiving, relentless and unnegotiable campaign of violence.

Israel for using uneccesary and excessive force whilst trying to hypocritical justify its actions.

Who is the bigger villain? One might be more predominantly evil in its tactics but the other certainly throws bigger punches.
 
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FindMuck

Registered Member
#4
The Palestinians are the victims, the Israeli government is taking action against Palestinians that they admit are apartheid, they violate the law of proportional response, the government allows Israelis to kick Palestinians off their land and kill them if they want the land (settlements) Palestinians in Israel need to apply for a passport to live there even though their families have lived there for hundreds of years. The government makes Palestinians inside Israel live in increasingly tighter poor ghettos and they blockade and starve Palestinians in Gaza even though it violates a treaty that Hamas made to bring peace to the region. Anyone who sees this as anything less than it is - a crime against humanity - is delusional or being lied to.

Argument:

If Americans Knew - what every American needs to know about Israel/Palestine
 
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Boredie

In need of Entertainment
#5
the government allows Israelis to kick Palestinians off their land and kill them if they want the land (settlements)
Um, the government never allowed a killing of an innocent palestinian to take his house, for the sake of taking his house.

Palestinians in Israel need to apply for a passport to live there even though their families have lived there for hundreds of years.
Palestinians need a passport for Israel, since they are not Israelis. It would be like that in any country.
The government makes Palestinians inside Israel live in increasingly tighter poor ghettos and they blockade and starve Palestinians in Gaza even though it violates a treaty that Hamas made to bring peace to the region.
Hamas has done a poor job taking care of their own people, the Palestinians in Gaza. Israel withdrew from Gaza to make peace, and allow the palestinians to live under their prefered rule. One needs to turn to Hamas to settle the ghetto problems, not to Israel. Hamas is being given money from all over the world to take care of their people, and so far it seems they are not doing a good job.
 

pro2A

Hell, It's about time!
#6
Israel. Plain and simple.

Reason being Israel is one of our strongest allies, and the United States (regardless of what our President thinks) is at war with terror... which in my opinion includes the Palestinians. I'm surprised Israel shows as much restraint as they do.
 

Boredie

In need of Entertainment
#7
I'm surprised Israel shows as much restraint as they do.
World opinion makes a difference to actions that should have been taken, or those which are thought of. The Israeli government is a puppet to the US government and does what it is told like a good dog. True there are times when Israel takes action without the consent of the US, but by not acknowledging these actions then the world is free to blame Israel solely for their actions. And the Israeli government cannot afford to lose face to world opinion. Puppets.
 

FindMuck

Registered Member
#8
Um, the government never allowed a killing of an innocent palestinian to take his house, for the sake of taking his house.
What exactly are the settlements doing, because I'm pretty sure that's exactly what they're doing...unless you want to play semantics and say that they are taking the land instead. Same shit same smell.

Palestinians need a passport for Israel, since they are not Israelis. It would be like that in any country.
So if someone walked into your house, claimed your living room, and then made you get a passport just so you can go in the living room...if that's democracy then damn, terrorism isn't really much worse.
Hamas has done a poor job taking care of their own people, the Palestinians in Gaza.
How?
Israel withdrew from Gaza to make peace,
What are you talking about they went in and killed 1200 innocent civilians.
and allow the palestinians to live under their prefered rule.
Actually no, Gaza is like an open air prison because of the Israeli blockade, some people can only get water 4 days a week. The blockade is breaking a peace treaty that Israel signed. Hamas has not broken any international laws, Israel has.

One needs to turn to Hamas to settle the ghetto problems, not to Israel.
That's like blaming Latin America for its problems when they're really all because of foreign imperial powers such as the US. Please don't tell me you are actually that blind.

Hamas is being given money from all over the world to take care of their people, and so far it seems they are not doing a good job.
What are you talking about, Israel makes streets in Gaza that Palestinians can not drive on, they bomb Gaza and they use white phosphorus on kids, that is not Hamas' fault. Israel put up a blcokade and is starving Gaza of resources that's not Hamas' fault. Like I said if Israel wants Hamas to help their people they better recognize Hamas as their representative, and not a terrorist group.

You clearly know nothing of the history of the region which is sad for someone from there, because your statements are too general. You are indoctrinated. Please read up and then come back with an argument. Also...did you even look at my sorouces? They support my argument and thats why I posted them, so if you don't want to look incredibly stupid and actually have a chance at convincig someone, you might want to take a look at those before you rebut my argument.
 
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Boredie

In need of Entertainment
#9
What exactly are the settlements doing, because I'm pretty sure that's exactly what they're doing...unless you want to play semantics and say that they are taking the land instead. Same shit same smell.
In your previous post you wrote:
Originally Posted by FindMuck

the government allows Israelis to kick Palestinians off their land and kill them if they want the land
And that is not so. I was referring to that part of your statement. The authorization of killing of innocents. Hasn't happened.

Have you not watched the 2nd video in the OP. It explains it there.

What are you talking about, Israel makes streets in Gaza that Palestinians can not drive on, they bomb Gaza and they use white phosphorus on kids, that is not Hamas' fault. Israel put up a blcokade and is starving Gaza of resources that's not Hamas' fault. Like I said if Israel wants Hamas to help their people they better recognize Hamas as their representative, and not a terrorist group.
Is it not? If Hamas wouldn't steep low and terrorize Israel there wouldn't be any need for a blockade. Please read the quote at the bottom (Col. Richard Kemp) who explains exactly what the IDF did during the last operation in Gaza.

You clearly know nothing of the history of the region which is sad for someone from there, because your statements are too general. You are indoctrinated. Please read up and then come back with an argument. Also...did you even look at my sorouces? They support my argument and thats why I posted them, so if you don't want to look incredibly stupid and actually have a chance at convincig someone, you might want to take a look at those before you rebut my argument.
A. I'm not trying to convince anyone. I'm having a debate. Keep your opinions and I will keep mine.
B. I say again, have you not watched the 2nd video in the OP? It explains it in a nut shell. First watch it, and then I'd be very happy to go through it with you, section by section.
C. I know the history of this region from the creation of the world, and the reason the situation is the way it is currently, is because of lies, distortion and cowardice (hiding behind civilians).

Here is a quote from Col. Richard Kemp about Operation Cast Lead:
UN Watch Oral Statement
Delivered by Colonel Richard Kemp, 16 October 2009

UN Human Rights Council: 12th Special Session

Thank you, Mr. President.

I am the former commander of the British forces in Afghanistan. I served with NATO and the United Nations; commanded troops in Northern Ireland, Bosnia and Macedonia; and participated in the Gulf War. I spent considerable time in Iraq since the 2003 invasion, and worked on international terrorism for the UK Governments Joint Intelligence Committee.

Mr. President, based on my knowledge and experience, I can say this: During Operation Cast Lead, the Israeli Defence Forces did more to safeguard the rights of civilians in a combat zone than any other army in the history of warfare.

Israel did so while facing an enemy that deliberately positioned its military capability behind the human shield of the civilian population.


Hamas, like Hizballah, are expert at driving the media agenda. Both will always have people ready to give interviews condemning Israeli forces for war crimes. They are adept at staging and distorting incidents.

The IDF faces a challenge that we British do not have to face to the same extent. It is the automatic, Pavlovian presumption by many in the international media, and international human rights groups, that the IDF are in the wrong, that they are abusing human rights.

The truth is that the IDF took extraordinary measures to give Gaza civilians notice of targeted areas, dropping over 2 million leaflets, and making over 100,000 phone calls. Many missions that could have taken out Hamas military capability were aborted to prevent civilian casualties. During the conflict, the IDF allowed huge amounts of humanitarian aid into Gaza. To deliver aid virtually into your enemy's hands is, to the military tactician, normally quite unthinkable. But the IDF took on those risks.

Despite all of this, of course innocent civilians were killed. War is chaos and full of mistakes. There have been mistakes by the British, American and other forces in Afghanistan and in Iraq, many of which can be put down to human error. But mistakes are not war crimes.

More than anything, the civilian casualties were a consequence of Hamas way of fighting. Hamas deliberately tried to sacrifice their own civilians.

Mr. President, Israel had no choice apart from defending its people, to stop Hamas from attacking them with rockets.

And I say this again: the IDF did more to safeguard the rights of civilians in a combat zone than any other army in the history of warfare.

Thank you, Mr. President.
 
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Tucker

Lion Rampant
#10
I don't draw a line between Jews and Arabs as much as I do between the hawks and the doves of both sides in post-1948 Middle East power struggles. In that dichotomy, you will find me always on the side where I believe the true martyrs Sadat and Rabin would stand.
 
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