The necessity of Parties

icegoat63

Son of Liberty
V.I.P.
#1
An excerpt from George Washington's Farewell Address from September 17th, 1796

There is an opinion that parties in free countries are useful checks upon the administration of the government and serve to keep alive the spirit of liberty. This within certain limits is probably true; and in governments of a monarchical cast, patriotism may look with indulgence, if not with favor, upon the spirit of party.

But in those of the popular character, in governments purely elective, it is a spirit not to be encouraged. From their natural tendency, it is certain there will always be enough of that spirit for every salutary purpose. And there being constant danger of excess, the effort ought to be by force of public opinion, to mitigate and assuage it. A fire not to be quenched, it demands a uniform vigilance to prevent its bursting into a flame, lest, instead of warming, it should consume.
among the warnings that Washington gave in his farewell address that included the likes of; foreign entanglements & alliances, political Unity, to much public debt, and many others. George Washington gave us the other warning to Beware the Spirit of the Political Party that it would indefinitely split the nation.

Do you believe he was correct? Have we (the USA) lost track of our common goal, lost that Political Unity? Have we become so entangled amongst the "Red" and "Blue" that we've divided ourselves yet again as we once did almost 150 years ago?

This is not a thread to debate who is right and who is wrong or what party is the better. In fact it is quite the opposite. The only stance to take here is either Pro-Party or Anti-Party and to explain why you feel that way. Because if you are for one party, then this thread demands that you are for the other.
 

Merc

Certified Shitlord
V.I.P.
#2
I can't tell you how much I hate the kindergarten approach to politics in the USA.

It fucks up almost every political discussion because almost nobody can hold a political conversation without mentioning some vapid party line about how dumb one side is or how the other person is being a "typical [party]". Parties dumb down the political system by putting people into broad categories of belief.

I would love to see a successful, individualistic system, but I don't think it's in human nature to function that way.
 

CaptainObvious

Son of Liberty
V.I.P.
#3
I've always agreed with Washington's assessement of political parties in his farewell address, too bad John Adams and Thomas Jefferson disagreed. I'm anti-party because of the reasons Washington gave, i.e. political unity, party loyalty over a unified country, etc...

I agree with Cons though, it's human nature for people to be this way so that's the system that has developed.
 

MenInTights

not a plastic bag
#4
Things are changing and people are waking up and shedding the party id. There's a poll that now has Independents as 39% of Americans. From what I understand, this is the first time Independents have ever outnumbered Republicans and Democrats.
GOP Party Identification Slips Nationwide and in Pennsylvania - Pew Research Center

I saw some tea parties where Republicans came out to speak about the evil Democrats and were damn near lynched for their hypocrisy. Even if you don't agree with the tea parties, you gotta admit that's a good sign things are turning away from the my team is better than your team.
 
#5
Do you believe he was correct? Have we (the USA) lost track of our common goal, lost that Political Unity? Have we become so entangled amongst the "Red" and "Blue" that we've divided ourselves yet again as we once did almost 150 years ago?
I think he was undeniably correct. I mean, really, it doesn't take a genius to see the potential danger in government based on parties. I mean, I don't think anyone can deny that we're seeing the worst a party system can offer.

It is, in some regards, interesting to see the evolution of a party system. We've gone from multiple parties, to something I hate more than anything else. Bi-partisanship.

In theory, a party system *could* work, however, as much as it's human nature to group together; it is also human nature to weed down to the simplest form. Instead of having 20 parties covering every belief, it was reduced down to two "widely varied" parties.

I am, without a doubt, against bi-partisanship, I hate it beyound belief, because in the end all it does is seperate, not unite the country.


Now to MiT:

I think these statements are nothing but confidence through illusions. While single independants are higher than before, the government is ran more by political parties than ever before. Mutli-party platforms don't exist, and any senator/mayor/president has to appease their own party to gain their position as well as do anything within that position.

To further complicate the issue there are lobbyists tied to each party, which only further the trench we've built ourselves. We can't say there is progress until you see an expansion of 3rd party candidates or a recognition nation wide of the harms of bi-partisanship.
 

MenInTights

not a plastic bag
#6
Now to MiT:

I think these statements are nothing but confidence through illusions. While single independants are higher than before, the government is ran more by political parties than ever before. Mutli-party platforms don't exist, and any senator/mayor/president has to appease their own party to gain their position as well as do anything within that position.

To further complicate the issue there are lobbyists tied to each party, which only further the trench we've built ourselves. We can't say there is progress until you see an expansion of 3rd party candidates or a recognition nation wide of the harms of bi-partisanship.
yeah I agree. There's a ruling class on DC. I'm reading Common Sense and just getting to the gerrymandering chapter. Republicans and Democrats have rigged the system in more ways than one to keep themselves in power. But on a local level, things are turning. People are seeing the illusions and that's a good thing. Now, I have no idea where it goes from here. I can tell you though, I went to the tea parties and that was the most non-partisan event I've ever been to. We were all Conservative minded sure, but there is a complete abandonment of the Repub party happenin and I hope the same happens on the other side. You can support Obama w/o supporting the Dems. That's where things will change.
 
#7
yeah I agree. There's a ruling class on DC. I'm reading Common Sense and just getting to the gerrymandering chapter. Republicans and Democrats have rigged the system in more ways than one to keep themselves in power. But on a local level, things are turning. People are seeing the illusions and that's a good thing. Now, I have no idea where it goes from here. I can tell you though, I went to the tea parties and that was the most non-partisan event I've ever been to. We were all Conservative minded sure, but there is a complete abandonment of the Repub party happenin and I hope the same happens on the other side. You can support Obama w/o supporting the Dems. That's where things will change.
I agree to a point, I mean all things must start with a grass-roots movement, however, I don't think you'll see a change in it. I mean realistically, I believe what Jefferson said, that the UNited States would need multiple revolutions before it becomes a true democracy.

We've argueably seen 3. The revolutionary war, the civil war, and then the Civil Liberties Revolution. I think there will need to be some serious ground shaking action needed in the United States before we see any change in our government.
 

MenInTights

not a plastic bag
#8
I agree to a point, I mean all things must start with a grass-roots movement, however, I don't think you'll see a change in it. I mean realistically, I believe what Jefferson said, that the UNited States would need multiple revolutions before it becomes a true democracy.

We've argueably seen 3. The revolutionary war, the civil war, and then the Civil Liberties Revolution. I think there will need to be some serious ground shaking action needed in the United States before we see any change in our government.
When I get done reading Common Sense, I will send it to you. I think the ground shaking has begun and a lot of it comes back to the R/D system. The only thing I don't understand is how it all plays out. What does the movement look like in a year? But, I can't stress this enough, nobody is trying to take out Obama. We've all been through the if my guy gets in place everything will be better. That's not the goal.
 

Rectify88

Registered Member
#9
I think that there is a good reason or at least a noble one. The thing is that these days we as a nation have lost touch with what the whole system was about. No we see just colors and we don't vote on issues or the person being elected. I always saw elections as the highest form of a job interview and we are the employers. Our system is not to choose the color. I mean the person could be purple and as long as he's qualified to do the job then he deserves to get elected. Since this thread is only giving me 2 options to either be Pro Party or Anti Party, I think not having a part is to much like totalitarianism, and dictatorship, so I'm more for bi-partisanship, or to be descriptive, Constitutionalism.