The Importance of Jesus?

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Boredie, Apr 12, 2010.

  1. Boredie

    Boredie In need of Entertainment

    It's been bugging me for quite some time, and Hybrix's thread about what Christians/Jews think of each other, and his other thread about evangelizing has only fueled my interest to try and understand the importance of Jesus.

    Don't get me wrong, I have no intention of changing my faith, this is just purely a matter of wanting to understand the following:
    Why do Christians, who do their utmost to try and convert people to Christianity, need to try and convert people who already believe in God?
    As a Jew, I believe in God, so why do I therefore (according to Christianity) need to believe in Jesus as well? Isn't believing in God enough?
    Surely the son of God is below God himself, so therefore believing in the "parent" is what's important.

  2. Ember

    Ember Registered Member

    I am not religious, and I believe each one is free. But I think it's the fact that for Christians God is not an entity itself but is a part of the Holy Trinity (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). So, Jesus is not the "son of God" but a part of that God.

    Anyway I think Jesus' teachings are ok. If only the Church followed them!! :sigh:
    Nice to meet you by the way! :)
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2010
  3. idisrsly

    idisrsly I'm serious V.I.P. Lifetime

    For the same reason you need to convince those who do not believe in your God that there is a God. The new testament is a very big part of what Christianity is all about. When Christians refer to God we speak of a Trinity God, Father, Son and Holy Ghost.

    The Bible commands us to spread His gospel, and part of our Gospel (if not the biggest part of it) is the fact that there is a New Testament. That's really it. We are not that diffirent when it comes to spreading His word, but His word to us has the addition of His son dying on the cross for our sins.:nod:
  4. Boredie

    Boredie In need of Entertainment

    It's not the same.
    You are talking about people who don't believe in any deity and trying to convince them one exists, whereas I'm talking of a situation where we both believe in the same God, just I believe in him minus Jesus.
    Why does Jesus play such a significant role?
    Btw, Jews do not spread their religion to others of different faiths, only to their brethren (fellow Jews).
  5. Smelnick

    Smelnick Creeping On You V.I.P.

    When adam took a bite of the apple in genesis, he made it so that no man or woman who came after him was sinless. So that's why in the old testament, you have people sacrificing animals and all those other rules and laws, to try and be sinless enough to get to the kingdom of God.

    And then you read isaiah 3:16, it tells us that god loved the world so much, that he sent his only son down to earth as a man, to die on the cross as the ultimate sacrifice to end all sacrifices. Whoever believes in him is forgiven that original sin, and can get into heaven. Its like, through jesus, that sin that adam caused is shielded from god by jesus. Which is why we can get into heaven without animal sacrifice, and a lot of those other OT laws.
  6. Boredie

    Boredie In need of Entertainment

    You gave the wrong verse, Smel. 3:16 doesn't talk about any son of god.
  7. Smelnick

    Smelnick Creeping On You V.I.P.

    Hmmmm, well, I know its isaiah lol, I guess I forget which. I'll have to look it up when I get home. Sorry 'bout that.
    Oh! No, not isaiah! John 3:16 duh
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2010
  8. aramis

    aramis Registered Member

    Catholics have a strong doctrine about that very issue.

    Christ's sacrifice is the fulfillment of the promise of a messiah, but not in the sense of a temporal leader; his sacrifice is a way out of the Curse of Adam, the final sacrifice under the Mosaic law, but with the admonishment that those who accept some but not all of the teachings of Christ will be rejected.

    The Catholic scriptures* are pretty clear, tho', that the Old Law is still in force. Thus, if you are an observant Jew practicing the fullness of the Mosaic Law, you will get to rest in Sheol until the second coming, at which point, you will have to accept or reject Christ, but will do so from a more knowledgeable point of view. But the church also points out that the fullness of the Mosaic law is afully hard, and requires a temple and sacrifices...

    The Catholic Church also says that invincible ignorance (IE, those who have never had the opportunity to become Christians) might also be accorded the same "benefit" of Sheol.

    It also teaches that the more correct the worship, the more likely it counts; those groups which do not maintain trinitarian baptism (excluding those under the Mosaic Law) have rejected the teachings of Christ, and thus Christ himself, and thus God. Likewise, those who are not eucharistic christians have rejected Christ's own instruction. Likewise, those who do not maintain apostolic succession have rejected the Church which Christ founded upon Peter and the apostles.

    But the church also maintains the biblical warning: those who know and reject Christ reject the father (Luke 10). They are the ones who are known by Christ's own words to be damned. John 12, however, points out that:
    44 Jesus cried out and said, "Whoever believes in me believes not only in me but also in the one who sent me, 45 and whoever sees me sees the one who sent me. 46 I came into the world as light, so that everyone who believes in me might not remain in darkness. 47 And if anyone hears my words and does not observe them, I do not condemn him, for I did not come to condemn the world but to save the world. 48 Whoever rejects me and does not accept my words has something to judge him: the word that I spoke, it will condemn him on the last day, 49 because I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is eternal life. So what I say, I say as the Father told me."​
    Many other Christian sects reject the notion that the Old Law is still in force; they see the fulfillment of the Mosaic Law as ending it, ignoring Christ's statement "not one jot nor tittle of the Old Law shall pass away." They see Jews as the second most condemned, having no valid covenant but still thinking they do. John 12 tells that it's only on the last day that the condemnation happens.

    Still, from a christian view, one must make the Gospel available to all, even the Jews under the Mosaic Law.

    * it is important to remember: The Bible was collated by the group which is now known as the Catholic and Orthodox churches; Protestant bibles have been brutalized by the removal of several important Jewish books in the 1600's. The canon of the Bible as approved by the Church of the councils is the Catholic version, NOT Luther and Zwingly's redaction.
  9. Ramman

    Ramman Registered Member

    Ram: There are several misconceptions in what you write. First of all

    GOD is the FATHER the SON and the HOLY GHOST.

    There is no subjugation in the persons of GOD. Jesus proceeeded by the Will of GOD the Father and at all times was in Union with HIM. The same can be said of the Holy Ghost.

    The Jews are the Chosen People of GOD.

    Catholics (Christians) did not reveal the fact that JESUS is GOD to the Chosen people. GOD the Father did. Whom they say is their GOD. When the Jews rejected GOD the SON (And not all did many of the first converts were originally Jewish worshipping under the Old Covenant ) The Kingdom of GOD likewise became available to Gentiles being a perfection of the Old Covenant in the New.

    Catholics are called to Testify of the Truths revealed by GOD out of Charity for their Neighbor. And for no other reason.

    It was JESUS who said - "No one cometh to the Father but by Me. "

    Should we keep this to ourselves? Where is the Charity in that?

    Ultimately it is the Truths revealed by GOD in Grace that will become evident. Those who do not convert - ignore that Grace given for their own benefit so that they can obtain the beatific vison. On judgement day they will have to render an accounting for that Grace given. Not to Catholics - to GOD the Son as will we as well.

  10. Boredie

    Boredie In need of Entertainment

    What you give me is a passage out of the NT, and since the NT doesn't mean anything to me, I can't accept that as a good enough reason (on my part alone, I totally understand that you believe it is good enough) why a Jew has to believe in Jesus.

    This is on a side note, Mosaic law of the time required sacrifices. These days there is no temple - therefore sacrifices do not come into play, but that by no means indicates that we don't fully practice the Mosaic laws.
    Also when the 3rd temple will be built we do not know whether or not sacrifices will be returned to usage since times have changed and no one does that these days.
    Did you know that Jews living outside the land of Israel cannot fulfill commandments that can only be done in Isreal? It by no means indicates that a Jew living anywhere else in the world cannot fulfill the Mosaic law. They fulfill what they can. Also out of the 613 laws there are laws that only Priests or only women or only men can take part in, does that mean that the rest are lacking in fulfilling the laws?

    So what happened before Jesus? Was there no need to believe in God? If you look at the history (which I'm sure you know well) Christianity evolved with the stories of Jesus. Jews believed in the same God all along, why would Jesus appearance have to change Jews' view about God?

    A hypothetical question: If Jesus was omitted from the holy trinity (making it a holy duality) i.e that Jesus had no importance whatsoever (he never existed/he was just a plain mortal/he lied)
    Would you then not be able to believe in God at all? Would it shatter your entire belief system as to the possibility of there being no God at all?

    You still haven't answered the question - why is he (Jesus) that important? I believe in God, You say that god the son is part of the God I believe in - all you believe is that my rejection of god the son means I do not believe in God. But there you are completely wrong. Read my replies to aramis.

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