The Bible / Supposed Biblical Fallacies

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by FutureTrackStar, Mar 27, 2009.

  1. FutureTrackStar

    FutureTrackStar Registered Member

    I saw a post at the beginning of the "Why I believe in God" thread that suggested that we categorize our discussions instead of lumping them all into one big "God's existence" thread. So, I'll start a few categories.

    This one is for Biblical discussions. This is the place for atheists to attack the Bible, and for Christians to defend the Bible. Please note that this is a specific thread that talks about the Christian God and His Word ONLY. If you want to talk about the Koran or w/e then make a thread for that.

    To begin, I saw a post by somebody within the first few pages of the "Why I believe in God" thread that stated that Jesus never claimed to be God. WOW. Evolutionists always tell Creationists to get an understanding of evolution before they argue, so you know what.... Atheists: Get an understanding of the Bible before you start to attack it! I will admit that I don't know a great deal about evolution, which is why I don't talk about it too much. But I think atheists should understand what they are talking about before they talk about it as well.

    So to respond to the statement "Jesus never claimed to be God", let me show you some passages from the Bible to refute that claim:

    John 8:57, 58 - "Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am"

    - I think Jesus' words here are more powerful than the statement "I am God". Here, He claims to exist in the present tense before Abraham was ever born, which means He exists presently at all times.

    John 10:26-30 - "But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish... I and my Father are one."

    John 13:13 - "Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am."

    John clearly states in the beginning of his book: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God... In Him was life; and the life was the light of men... And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." John uses the word "Word" (Logos) to effectively communicate with Jews and Gentiles (What do John 1:1,14 mean when they declare that Jesus is the Word of God?).

    John 14:9 - "Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father"
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2009

  2. PretzelCorps

    PretzelCorps Registered Member

    First of all, I'm not an atheist.

    That said, I ask ye:

    "In your own words, what would you say the Bible is?"
  3. FutureTrackStar

    FutureTrackStar Registered Member

    - In my own words, I say that the Bible is the Word of God. And by Word, I don't mean "God in the flesh" as John does, I mean God's inspired communication with mankind, through mankind.

    P.S. I didn't mean to call you in particular an atheist. I wasn't sure who claimed that Jesus never said He was God... and it was probably wrong of me to imply that this person is an atheist. But I still stand by my statement that people in general should have an understanding of what they are talking about before they begin to argue.
  4. PretzelCorps

    PretzelCorps Registered Member

    I was just implying that you don't have to necessarily be completely atheist to debate the Bible, that's all.

    In other words, God wrote the entire Bible, verbatim, through people...

    So how does one come to know this as fact? Particularly considering that a) The human mind is fallible (ie: hallucinations); no one is perfect, and b) People lie (Christians included)...
  5. FutureTrackStar

    FutureTrackStar Registered Member

    - The Bible says that all scripture are divinely inspired. Plus, if you actually studied the Bible for a few years you would see that it is extremely consistent throughout. Considering that the books were written over a period of about 1400 years by varying authors from different social classes, I would say its pretty reliable.

    Also, from :

    Historians judge the accuracy of ancient documents by several criteria. The most important of these criteria are the total number of ancient manuscripts, the time-span between the actual event described and the oldest manuscript, and well the events described by the manuscript are confirmed by other historical events or manuscripts. No other ancient document even approaches the Bible for accuracy, total copies available, effect upon Western culture and thought. For instance, we have only 10 ancient documents describing the Gallia wars of Julius Caesar and the oldest available document is 1000 years removed from the events described. We have only 5 ancient documents describing the life and work of Aristotle and the oldest copy is 1400 years removed from the events described. In contrast, there are over 2,000 ancient manuscripts of the New Testament Bible which are essentially identical to our modern translation. The oldest manuscript has been dated to within a single generation of the events described. If Caesar and Aristotle were real people...if we have an accurate account of their lives and statements...there is far, far greater evidence for the existence of Jesus Christ, the accuracy of His statements, and the reality of the events surrounding His life.
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2009
  6. WesJones87

    WesJones87 RayzorBlade87

    Ooooh...this thread could cause trouble with more answers like the one I'm going to post.

    Firstly, let me state that I am Agnostic. Whilst I'm open to the suggestion of there being a "God", I'm not entirely convinced that one exists.

    Now, in my opinion, the Bible is an ancient storybook, written with the intent to convince people to believe that Jesus and indeed, God exist in the forms that we know them. I do believe that there WERE people around that time named Jesus, Mary Magdalene, Judas etc, but I don't feel that the Bible paints a true portrait of them. Stories such as that of Moses, Sodom and Gomorrah and Noahs Ark all lend a hand to my storybook theory, with their fantastical (this is by definition) elements.

    It's my opinion that the Christian Church discovered this book, either took it as fact or knew it was fiction but decided to use it as fact, and use it to convince non-believers that there was in fact a God.

    Another point is if The New Testament focuses on Jesus' life for the most part, and it's ALL fact, then why cut out a huge chunk of it? In The Bible, Jesus' story jumps from infancy to being "about thirty years old". Why not put in his teenage and young adult years?
    Maybe because Jesus was sleeping around with every woman in Nazereth, and this would spoil the image of purity Jesus had? Pure opinion, I must stress that.

    I feel I will get either neg repp'd, flamed or hated for this, but it is merely an opinion.
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2009
  7. Smelnick

    Smelnick Creeping On You V.I.P.

    Well, you are entitled to your opinion Wes =P Naturally, if he did do all that stuff in his teen years, then that would definitely change a few things =P
  8. PretzelCorps

    PretzelCorps Registered Member

    In defense of the Bible --> It's 2,000 years old, well before the time of books and the printing press; you cannot judge it to today's standards.

    More likely, the story of Christ's teenage and adult years were deemed uninteresting or unimportant. Even more likely than that; none of the writers of the New Testament knew Jesus until the "about thirty years old" stage, so there probably just wasn't anything relevant to add.

    Given the time period, had it been public knowledge that Christ had spent his youth leaping from bed to bed, odds are he would have been rather unsuccessful in convincing anyone he was a messiah...
    Except for maybe a few ladies... :nod::D

    Last edited: Mar 28, 2009
  9. Smelnick

    Smelnick Creeping On You V.I.P.

    Well, it wouldn't change anything for me, but for lots of the christian community it would. The bible says that Jesus was righteous and perfect. If he sinned in his teenage years, that would make the bible a liar, and how could we trust anything else in it?
  10. FutureTrackStar

    FutureTrackStar Registered Member

    First of all, I'm pretty sure Jesus was in Egypt during those years. I forget where I heard/read that though... By the way, the Bible says that Jesus was preaching to the Rabbi's at the age of 12.

    Also, for anybody who doesn't believe that there was a worldwide flood, go to Creation Science Evangelism | Creation. Evolution. Dinosaurs. The Bible. and watch Hovind's seminar on the Great Flood. He gives tons of scientific evidence for the flood. For example, there are hundreds of trees found standing straight up through dozens of layers of rock that evolutionists would say took millions of years to form. I don't know about you, but I think a tree founded in rock would die and fall over within a few hundred years.

    If the events of the Bible are not true, then the events about Aristotle, Caesar, and many other ancient figures are probably not true as well. The Biblical account is much richer and more reliable technically speaking than the documents we have about most other ancient figures.

    Also, the Christian Church didn't just discover this book. These scriptures floated around for a long time, and they had to be compiled into the modern day Bible. This process took quite a while. Plus, it was only compiled after Jesus died. Christianity only spread after Jesus died. Jesus didn't cause Christianity to spread, His death/resurrection caused Christianity to spread.

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