• Welcome to the PopMalt Forums! Whether you're new to forums or a veteran, welcome to our humble home on the web! We're a 20-year old forum community with thousands of discussions on entertainment, lifestyle, leisure, and more.

    Our rules are simple. Be nice and don't spam. Registration is free, so what are you waiting for? Join today!.

Surge of refugee influx to Germany

Sim

Registered Member
When Chancellor Merkel (center-right CDU) decided to allow all refugees in who had made it to Hungary, this was a huge decision and finally caused massive media attention to the topic. It was a u-turn in comparison to her previous approach that refugees who enter an EU country shall be registered there and sheltered there, before a solution can be found to distribute them.

Merkel said in a speech that "this decision will change Germany". Vice Chancellor Sigmar Gabriel (center-left SPD), who also is Minister for Economy, even said "this is the most important decision since German Reunification".

Merkel said "this time, we have to learn from the mistakes made in the past", referring to the insufficient integration of "guest workers" from Turkey. "Efforts must be taken to teach them German and integrate them quickly into the labor market".

800,000 refugees, mostly from Syria, have entered Germany this year so far. Last year, it had been 400,000-500,000 already. Gabriel said he expects an influx of 500,000 more per year in the next couple of years. So the total figure could be something between 3-5 million in a couple of years, which is roughly the fourth part of the number of Germans who joined via Reunification 25 years ago. Germany has a population of 80 million so far.

The government said they'll provide €6 billion for the issue immediately. Finance Minister Schäuble (center-right CDU) stressed that thanks to the austerity policy in the past years, Germany is now in a comfortable situation to be able to provide billions. Vice Chancellor Gabriel (center-left SPD) announced that the issue of affordable housing will be addressed massively within the next years, for refugess and natives alike.

After there were many reports about right-wing rallys and even arson attacks against refugees during the summer, this media attention now has caused a backlash among the mainstream, against the right-wingers. When the 20,000 refugees per day arrived in Munich last week, hundreds of voluntary helpers were there to welcome them, providing them with drinks, food and toys for kids. The media is now calling this "Willkommenskultur" ("a culture of welcoming guests"). Skeptics are warning that these pictures will cause even more Syrians to attempt to go to Germany. Mass circulation tabloid "BILD", usually not shy of populist attacks on foreigners, started a campaign with the title "We're helping!". Vice Chancellor Gabriel put a button with that slogan on his suit, when he participated in the general debate in parliament.

The German government (a "grand coalition" of both large parties from left and right, CDU/CSU and SPD), is seeking support from other EU countries, addressing "European values" and "European solidarity", but many other EU countries are turning down these demands and attack the German government instead -- especially the conservative UK government by Tory Cameron and the Eastern European Visigrad countries, such as Hungary (and its far-right PM Orban), Slovakia and Poland ("Muslims wouldn't feel comfortable in our Christian country anyway, they wouldn't be a good match").

In a talkshow on tv, Vice Chancellor Gabriel harshly attacked and talked down a Slovakian member of parliament from the governing party in that country. "Be frank and say it openly: You don't want any refugees! But let you be told this, you will be the big losers in the end. You cannot claim to believe in the EU just when you're getting money out of it." This could be easily understood as a threat: More than half of all EU aids go from Germany and others to these eastern countries. When the Slovakian PM pointed to referenda that showed the natives don't want any Muslims, Gabriel implied the governments of these eastern countries don't understand what a Constitution is and don't share Western values.

Recent polls are showing a majority of Germans is optimistic, yet the country is divided: Roughly two thirds support the government's policies, while one third opposes it:

"The decision to allow refugees in was good": Yes 66%, it was bad: 29%

New polls are out, and it looks like the Germans are slightly more skeptic about the influx of immigrants than two weeks ago:

"Do you feel the reintroduction of border controls of some EU countries is good or bad?" -- Good: 78%, Bad: 19%

"Is the unity of the EU endangered because of the refugee crisis?" -- Yes: 63% (2 weeks ago: 55%), No: 34% (2 weeks ago: 42%)

"What we're doing for the refugees is..." -- Too much: 24% (2 weeks ago: 17%), Just enough: 49% (2 weeks ago: 57%), Too few: 21% (unchanged)

"Can Germany handle the influx of so many refugees?" -- Yes: 57% (2 weeks ago: 62%), No: 40% (2 weeks ago: 35%)

"The many refugees will bring Germany on the long run ..." -- Advantages: 21%, Disadvantages: 29%, Both: 47%

"What a job is Chancellor Merkel doing when it comes to refugees?" -- A good job: 50%, A bad job: 43%

"What a job is Merkel doing in general?" -- A good job: 73%, A bad job: 23%


On the list of the most popular politicians, Merkel dropped from #1 down to #4 -- on a scale from +5 to -5, she's now at 1.9 (2.4 two weeks ago). Vice Chancellor Gabriel drops from 1.3 down to 1.1.

As for the political party preferences, Merkel's center-right CDU/CSU loses 1%, but is still clearly strongest party at 41%. The far-left Left Party rises one point to 9%, and the anti-immigrant right-wing populist AfD rises one point to 5% of the votes.

Politbarometer Polls 9/25/2015
 

Sim

Registered Member
This topic has not caused change, when it comes to support of the different parties in polls:



Chancellor Angela Merkel (center-right CDU) is currently governing in her third term. She's been Chancellor since 2005. She has been CDU chairwoman ever since 2000 and was opposition floor leader against former Chancellor Schröder 2002-05.

Sigmar Gabriel (center-left SPD) was Prime Minister of Lower Saxony 1999-2003, Federal Minister for Environment 2005-09, chairman of the major center-left party SPD since 2009, which made him the most important opposition politician 2009-13. After the 2013 election, Merkel's CDU/CSU formed a "grand coalition" with the SPD, and Gabriel became Vice Chancellor and Minister for Economy.

Although the two are Chancellor and deputy now, it's likely Sigmar Gabriel is going to run as candidate for Chancellor for his center-left SPD in the next general election, which is scheduled for September 2017. This would place the two against each other as major competitors (assuming Merkel seeks a 4th term, which is likely).

The lastest polls:

Christian Democrats (center-right CDU/CSU): 41%-42% of the votes (41.5% in 2013)

Social Democrats (center-left SPD): 25%-26% (25.7% in 2013)

Green Party (progressive-environmentalist B'90/Grüne): 10%-11% (8.4% in 2013)

Left Party (far-left/socialist Linke): 8%-9% (8.6% in 2013)

-------- 5%-hurdle -- no party with less than 5.0% enters the parliament ---------

Free Democrats (libertarian FDP): 4% (4.8% in 2013)

Alternative for Germany (right-wing populist AfD): 5% (4.7% in 2013)

all others well below.



These polls results are extremely stable. There were hardly any changes in the past 2 years, since the last election. If this continues until 2017, even the result of the election would be "more of the same" -- another Merkel/Gabriel government.

It remains to be seen if the right-wing AfD, which has a clear anti-immigration stance, will benefit from the topic of refugees on the long term. So far, it hasn't.
 

Sim

Registered Member
And my personal experience so far:

My wife, daughter and I were on a visit to my parents today. When we went back home, I saw from the car that in the next biggest street to my parents' home, refugees were apparently housed: It used to be a boring office building, part of the local ministry for health. Now I saw many African people in front of it, and obviously people were living there, and some had hung out German flags from the windows.

After we had gone back home, and my daughter was asleep, I told my wife I want to go back there; so we quickly collected old, but still usable clothes. I took these three bags, went to a nearby shop and bought 12 bottles of beer, and then went on to the place.

At first, I saw a couple of security guards in front of the building, and just told them about my wish to drop some clothes and get to know the people. They were not authoritarian or square at all, but in colloquial language told me that I can either give the clothes to some central point inside the building, or just go over to the guys sitting there -- which I did.

There was a couple of guys gathered, about six people I think, and I introduced me, told them about the clothes and offered them beer. They were very grateful about the clothes and said they're of good use to them (all of this in English; they talked English with each other, some spoke better English, some worse; and in some cases, a person next to them translated in their African language).

When I got in a talk with them, I learned that they had just arrived 2 days ago, and most of them hadn't known each other before. Yet they were behaving like comrades, or brothers in arms, which is a testimony of the things they had been through. Most were from Africa, Eritrea and Ethiopia, one from Senegal. There were a couple of Afghanis, too, one Syrian and one guy from Ukraine (he was from Kiev, but had flown because the loyal Ukrainian army is now drafting older people too, and he refused to do military service).

The Syrian and some of the Afghanis didn't want to drink beer, and I apologized not to have any non-alcoholic drinks with me. The Syrian appeared rather uninterested, he just sat aside and didn't take efforts joining our talk. Maybe he didn't speak English at all, or he was busy with his own thoughts, and I didn't bother him any more. One Afghani spoke fluently Russian with the Ukrainian. I learnt he had gone to the university of Kabul and learnt Russian and English there, and he hopes to continue studying here in Germany.

My bag with a couple of extra beer bottles had been laying open aside all the time, but none of them served themselves, or attempted to take one more. There was nothing disorderly about their behavior at all. None of them was bagging or asking for anything. And said Syrian aside, none of them seemed to be too sad or wallowing in pity -- they more had the natural semblence of people who had been through too much to worry.

At 9:30pm, the security guards approached us and told us -- not ordered us, but told us in a very friendly manner, Arabic and English, that we shall please go inside, because the neighbors may be bothered by too loud talking. None of them voiced any disagreement, each of them was very understanding and sympathetic. I asked the guard if it's okay if I go inside with them, and he told me I can go for another 30 minutes, because then, they have to make sure the hall is no longer busy.

So I went there with an Ethiopian I had talked with before, and another guy from Eritrea. We sat down at a table in the hall, where several others, mostly families with little kids were sitting. The Ethiopian (whose name I've forgotten, it was rather unusual to my ear), told me his story. His Eritrean friend didn't say much, as his English was bad, but sometimes, the Ethiopian would translate for him in their native language. He told me he used to teach English at the university, and has some experience with Westeners, as he gave the tourist guide whenever someone came there.

We talked a lot, about the political situation, the political climate in Germany, and also a few words about his travel here. Considering he told me he had been in prison in Libya, and how horrible that was -- weeks without seeing the sunlight and choleric guards --, he was of a very good mood. He said he's happy to finally be here, though of course "there is no place like home", as we both agreed.

It were the refugees who reminded me I have to go now, they started emptying the room as they were told, so I shook hands, told them goodbye and wished them good luck.

On the way out, I talked with the guards for a moment: They were Germans with Arab background, chosen for the job because of their Arabic language skills. They were very friendly.
 

Hilander

Free Spirit
Staff member
V.I.P.
Hi Sim been a while.

I'm glad your interaction with the migrants has been a positive one but I've been reading that some places in Germany are telling girls to be careful of how they dress because of the Muslim men. Personally I think they should just get use to it if they want to be part of Germany or Europe.

I also have to wonder why most are men, young men. Are they trying to avoid having to fight for their country and are waiting for someone else to do it.

When that one Iraqi said he wasn't staying in Finland because of no bars, it was boring and cold I thought if you are a refugee wouldn't you be happy with any country taking you in. He sounded more like a tourist to me.

Merkel will probably stay high in the polls unless the migrants hurts someone.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Sim

Dr4gon

Registered Member
V.I.P.
Chancellor Gabriel is so totally right. Eastern countries dont share western values - they already have their own values.
Well Christmas is only January 1-7 but this time it lasts till the 10th. Yay! When its gone and Ded Moroz doesnt have any more gifts then what happens next? Everybody gets happy for Christmas but it always ends. The migrants are happy with all the free stuff atm and they are friendly. I wonder what its really all about after the party. Its too early to know.

I have friends in Bratislava so I already know and Im not surprised Slovakia doesnt want the immigrants there. Maybe Slovenia. Tosevski said they have dragons and they like meeting new people from other countries. But Slovenians are mostly too busy filing suits against each other and I dont like eating until I get sick - maybe the refugees would. But hey it wouldnt be safe to insult their Slovenian hosts.

Atm Im seriously happy Im not one of those refugees or living in the EU. It looks like it could get really scary... later.
 

Sim

Registered Member
Hi Sim been a while.

I'm glad your interaction with the migrants has been a positive one but I've been reading that some places in Germany are telling girls to be careful of how they dress because of the Muslim men. Personally I think they should just get use to it if they want to be part of Germany or Europe.

I also have to wonder why most are men, young men. Are they trying to avoid having to fight for their country and are waiting for someone else to do it.

When that one Iraqi said he wasn't staying in Finland because of no bars, it was boring and cold I thought if you are a refugee wouldn't you be happy with any country taking you in. He sounded more like a tourist to me.

Merkel will probably stay high in the polls unless the migrants hurts someone.
Hilander, good to see you!

Well, it's no surprise you hear such stories (like rape stories or such), after all, you know how rumors spread in this day and age of the internet. When a million refugees are in the country, you can be sure that a share of them will be criminal or violent, even when that share is not larger than among any other group of so many people (and I have no idea if it really is or not). But if just 1 out of 100 is a criminal, that means there are 10.000 among a million.

And then it just takes one story, one incident to be multiplied and spread as rumor. And that's not even counting the countless deliberate lies by bigots, racists and neo-Nazis they are constantly spreading online. Most of those can be easily debunked, but how many people who happen to read it actually take the effort of doing that? Something remains stuck ...

At any rate, when the refugees are registered, each of them is registered with fingerprint and biometric photo, so at least it should be possible to identify them if necessary.

And it's true that a majority of them are males; but not that many after all: The number you hear in the media here is that roughly two thirds are male, one third is female. And 80% of them are below the age of 40, so there are many children among them who come with their parents.

This also qualifies the numbers you hear regarding their education background: According to samples, 13% have an university education, another 24% have higher school education. On the other side, 15%-20% are said to be illiterate. But you have to keep in mind the young age (children are included in these numbers), and that many of them have been on the run for years, so these numbers aren't that dramatic.

Why they don't fight? Well, in case of Syria, whom should they fight with? The only choice they have is between ISIS and Assad's tyrannic dictatorship. It's like a choice between pestilence and cholera. There simply is no "good" side to fight for. So I can't blame them.

I am indeed worried about the fact they're mostly from Muslim cultures, and that this may cause a clash of cultures to some extent. We'll have to see how that works out.

However, most are from Syria, and Syria used to be one of the most secular Muslim countries. Assad may be a horrible dictator, but at least he's not fond of (radical) Islam. So many who used to live there perhaps are used to a secular kind of government. This, plus those who are really extreme Muslims have likely stayed there to fight in the ranks of ISIS against Assad.

In my daughter's daycare, we have now a little girl from Syria, 3 years old. At a daycare picknick, I met her parents; they were very nice, very friendly, and obviously secular. The mother didn't wear a scarf and had no problems talking with other men. And they are extremely motivated learning German, finding a job and an apartment. If most of the refugees are like them, I don't see problems with integration. But I have no idea how large the number of different people with different views is among the refugees.

However, it may be a problem if ISIS or other islamist groups use this crisis as a means to plant terrorists. Basically all they have to do is sending a couple of hundred of their fighters disguised as refugees, and nobody will notice.

I really hope this will work out well for Germany and not end in disaster.
 

Sim

Registered Member
This may be of interest, too:

Aiman Mazyek, chairman of the Central Council of Muslims in Germany, warned of religious conflicts and took a hardline position: Muslim refugees arriving in Germany must be told clearly what German culture is, what kind of behavior is considered acceptable in Germany and which customs and attitudes will not be tolerated here.

"Those who feel like fighting their religious conflicts here in Germany, have forfeit the right to stay in Germany immediately. Those people have no right to be here."

"We must set up very clear rules".

The German Grundgesetz (Constitution) shall be translated into Arabic and distributed among the refugees, he said. Refugees shall get classes on German social norms in addition to language classes.

Muslim chairman in Germany asks for strict rules

So it's a chairman of German Muslims already living here to make sure the Muslim refugees quickly learn to fit in! Well done!
 

Hilander

Free Spirit
Staff member
V.I.P.
This may be of interest, too:

Aiman Mazyek, chairman of the Central Council of Muslims in Germany, warned of religious conflicts and took a hardline position: Muslim refugees arriving in Germany must be told clearly what German culture is, what kind of behavior is considered acceptable in Germany and which customs and attitudes will not be tolerated here.

"Those who feel like fighting their religious conflicts here in Germany, have forfeit the right to stay in Germany immediately. Those people have no right to be here."

"We must set up very clear rules".

The German Grundgesetz (Constitution) shall be translated into Arabic and distributed among the refugees, he said. Refugees shall get classes on German social norms in addition to language classes.

Muslim chairman in Germany asks for strict rules

So it's a chairman of German Muslims already living here to make sure the Muslim refugees quickly learn to fit in! Well done!
My hat is off to him for trying to avert trouble before it happens. Some of the things men get away with in the ME, especially when it comes to women, isn't going to fly in a western country.

I'm not a fan of Assad but I think it would be best if he stayed in power. Even with all the stories I've read I think that would be best for Syria. Probably some blown out of proportion since that seems to happen with many things. His people were educated more than a lot in the area just like they use to be in Iraq. Now we are looking at a generation of Syrians and Iraqis that probably don't get to go to school because of ISIS.

I think western countries are going to have to step in and help with more than just bombing as much as I hate to put troops on the ground. I don't know why ME countries don't get more involved. Turkey just seems interested in bombing the Kurds who are fighting ISIS.

The UN was saying the migrants are 72% men now they have dropped that to 69%. Glad to see they keep this updated.

http://data.unhcr.org/mediterranean/regional.php
 

Dr4gon

Registered Member
V.I.P.
Props to Germany if it works and since a lot of the refugees are running from ISIS then they probaly already have serious issues with radical islam. But I think its more about jobs than religion and its still a huge risk. ISIS and members of other terrorist groups will be there too and Germany already has 4.7% unemployment even without all the new refugees.

But Merkel did say that Germany has tons of money to throw at the migrants and it does give them a safe place to hide.
And yeah there will be tons of retard rumors from people that cant respect other cultures. Ive had a lot of Muslim neighbors and friends and almost never any issues. Its mostly people that havent lived with Muslims that start those rumors. But rumors dont count. Suicide bombers and dead people count but not rumors.

Well if the Muslims obey the laws then no issues. Even more than the Constitution what they really need translated is the laws. People dont just toss their own culture unless they have serious mental issues. But cultures have lived together without violence. Thats why Im opposed to the proxy revolution in Syria. Both Assad and Hussein found ways to make religions live together in peace but now thats gone and the only thing that replaced it is neverending war.

Good luck with the migrants but I still am seriously happy Im not one of those migrants and that I dont live in the EU. Its just a serious crisis on so many levels.
 

Hilander

Free Spirit
Staff member
V.I.P.
I hope everything goes well with the migrants too. As many as there are just expect some to be associated with terrorist groups. Hopefully you can weed them out rather quickly.

We had an Iraqi refugee here try to by a missile and discovered others were associated with AL-Queda. Rand Paul said this happened in his home state. We didn't get near as many refugees as Germany either. Although we get a lot of people crossing our southern border that we know nothing about. Some are from the ME, Africa and Asia. If you throw those in we get just as many.
 
Top