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Support for Gay Marriage Has Never Been Higher

CaptainObvious

Embrace the Suck
V.I.P.
You understand that the Church is starving for members, correct?

Clearly most American Catholics don't take its doctrine very seriously these days, particularly on birth control. However, discrimination is something that people don't want to be associated with. It's different.
You understand there are still over 1.2 billion Catholics worldwide, correct? And you do understand the Church isn't going to compromise on it's principles simply because society is changing, don't you?
 

Babe_Ruth

Sultan of Swat
Staff member
V.I.P.
You understand there are still over 1.2 billion Catholics worldwide, correct? And you do understand the Church isn't going to compromise on it's principles simply because society is changing, don't you?
There are 1.2 billion Catholics worldwide, yes, but don't believe for a moment that the Church isn't concerned about its declining influence and membership in the United States and Europe. In this piece, it is noted that the Church lost 400,000 members in 2008 in the United States.

Catholics in crisis - The Week

And I very much believe the Church should compromise on its principles if its principles are discriminatory and do not have a place in the modern world.
 

CaptainObvious

Embrace the Suck
V.I.P.
There are 1.2 billion Catholics worldwide, yes, but don't believe for a moment that the Church isn't concerned about its declining influence and membership in the United States and Europe. In this piece, it is noted that the Church lost 400,000 members in 2008 in the United States.

Catholics in crisis - The Week

And I very much believe the Church should compromise on its principles if its principles are discriminatory and do not have a place in the modern world.
I'm not asking you what YOU believe, I'm asking you what you expect the Church to do. Of course the Church is concerned about it's membership, that's because there are fewer and fewer people following the teaching of Jesus Christ. I don't expect the Church to stray away from the teachings of Jesus Christ in return.

The bigger reasons why people have left the Church are the scandals in the Church and society becoming more secular in general, NOT because they will not compromise their stance on same sex marriage.
 
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Babe_Ruth

Sultan of Swat
Staff member
V.I.P.
I am not aware of Jesus's teachings on homosexuality.

However, I am aware of this one: "Judge not lest you be judged."
 

dDave

Well-Known Member
V.I.P.
I am not aware of Jesus's teachings on homosexuality.

However, I am aware of this one: "Judge not lest you be judged."
I'm sorry, but Jesus clearly held a traditional view of marriage, heck technically he (being God) invented it.

Here's Matthew 19: 1-13
When Jesus had finished saying these things, he left Galilee and went into the region of Judea to the other side of the Jordan. 2 Large crowds followed him, and he healed them there.

3 Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?”

4 “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’[a] 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh? 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”

7 “Why then,” they asked, “did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?”

8 Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”

10 The disciples said to him, “If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry.”

11 Jesus replied, “Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. 12 For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others—and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.”
I want to emphasize verses 4-6.

It doesn't really matter how widespread the support for gay marriage is, according to Biblical teaching it will always be wrong. I think it's safe to assume that what God (being God) thought 2,000 years ago is still 100% applicable to us today.
 

Jeanie

still nobody's bitch
V.I.P.
I like how people fall back on the Bible for reasons why homosexuality is a sin and gay marriage should not be allowed, when the Bible was written by men over 2000 years ago and has been translated so many times that no one can really be sure that modern translations are even correct.
 

CaptainObvious

Embrace the Suck
V.I.P.
I like how people fall back on the Bible for reasons why homosexuality is a sin and gay marriage should not be allowed, when the Bible was written by men over 2000 years ago and has been translated so many times that no one can really be sure that modern translations are even correct.
Those things are debated all the time, which is why you have different versions of the Bible. It's constantly debated about what was meant, and how it was meant. The study of those languages and what words were used are debated every day. Homosexuality isn't one of those things that is debated by Biblical scholars, in large part.

If the concern is membership, can you imagine the amount of people that would leave the Church if the Church suddenly stated homosexuality isn't a sin? Some people live with the idea that people follow the Catholic Church because of what the Church tells them to believe, actually people follow the Catholic Church because they agree with the teachings of the Church. I'm speaking generally here of course, and this paragraph isn't in response to Jeanie's post.
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I am not aware of Jesus's teachings on homosexuality.

However, I am aware of this one: "Judge not lest you be judged."
What does that verse have to do with this discussion? That applies to us as human beings, that does not apply to God. How can it? Those that believe in God believe he WILL judge us on the kind of life we led. So if God considers it a sin, how can we override his commandment?

As I stated before, Jesus established a new covenant between God and man. In that covenant he changed certain things such the punishment of stoning. What is important about that story is not just verse 7 which states "Let the one among you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her" but also verse 10 which states "Then Jesus straightened up and said to her 'Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?' She replied, 'No one, sir'. Then Jesus said, 'Neither do I condemn you. Go and from now on do not sin anymore". He doesn't condone the adultry, he just condemns the sentence AND it's a story about forgiveness. In other words she still committed a sin, and the Church still considers it a sin.
 
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Babe_Ruth

Sultan of Swat
Staff member
V.I.P.
What does that verse have to do with this discussion? That applies to us as human beings, that does not apply to God. How can it? Those that believe in God believe he WILL judge us on the kind of life we led. So if God considers it a sin, how can we override his commandment?[/quote[

By coming to the "correct" conclusion that God doesn't consider it a sin.
 

dDave

Well-Known Member
V.I.P.
By coming to the "correct" conclusion that God doesn't consider it a sin.
I don't know how you could come to that conclusion if you know the Bible. The word of God expressly states that homosexuality is a sin many times. Never does it describe it as a good thing, nowhere, not one single time.

At this point I might as well cite the verses I cited in the other thread. (please try to take them in context as they were intended)
Romans 1: 26-27
26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

Jude 7
And don't forget Sodom and Gomorrah and their neighboring towns, which were filled with immorality and every kind of sexual perversion. Those cities were destroyed by fire and serve as a warning of the eternal fire of God's judgment.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11
Don't you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don't fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, or are male prostitutes, or practice homosexuality, or are thieves, or greedy people, or drunkards, or are abusive, or cheat people-none of these will inherit the Kingdom of God. Some of you were once like that. But you were cleansed; you were made holy; you were made right with God by calling on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
The point in COs post was recognizing that Jesus forgave the woman and then said "Neither do I condemn you. Go and from now on do not sin anymore", this infers that she was in fact sinning before and Jesus had freed her (through forgiveness). This story must not be interpreted to mean that Jesus does not condemn sin but rather it's meant to show his forgiveness and mercy.
 
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CaptainObvious

Embrace the Suck
V.I.P.
What does that verse have to do with this discussion? That applies to us as human beings, that does not apply to God. How can it? Those that believe in God believe he WILL judge us on the kind of life we led. So if God considers it a sin, how can we override his commandment?[/quote[

By coming to the "correct" conclusion that God doesn't consider it a sin.
Based on? What do you base that "correct" conclusion on other than YOU don't think it's a sin?
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I don't know how you could come to that conclusion if you know the Bible. The word of God expressly states that homosexuality is a sin many times. Never does it describe it as a good thing, nowhere, not one single time.

At this point I might as well cite the verses I cited in the other thread. (please try to take them in context as they were intended)


The point in COs post was recognizing that Jesus forgave the woman and then said "Neither do I condemn you. Go and from now on do not sin anymore", this infers that she was in fact sinning before and Jesus had freed her (through forgiveness). This story must not be interpreted to mean that Jesus does not condemn sin but rather it's meant to show his forgiveness and mercy.
Precisely. The story was used to somehow insinuate that changed, that somehow something was considered a sin and is no longer one, which is incorrect. The woman still sinned, but she is commanded to sin no more and was forgiven.
 
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