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Science and Faith meets the real world

MenInTights

not a plastic bag
I was talking to someone on the board about the possibility of life being created in a lab and also the recent thread about faith and science and I decided to put the question into a real world example. I don't deal well with abstracts, so here goes.

There is a passage of scripture in Genesis that says there are "blessings from the deep" that will be discovered at a specific locations in Israel. And it talks about these blessings will be oil.

There is a Christian oil man that studied these passages of scripture and said we're going to drill there because the Bible says there is oil there. This is a crazy idea. No real oil has ever been found in Israel and the decision to locate and drill is based strictly on faith that the Bible said this is where the oil is. Located in what may be the oldest book of the bible, none the less.

This company has faith that oil is there and the science to get it out.

The answer to whether or not oil is there will be answered soon. So, what would you say if this company found oil? What that change your opinion on the Bible being an untrue book of fairy-tales? Would you mark it off as a lucky guess?

Are you confident enough in your beliefs that you would like to 'wager' now if the company will be prosperous or the will fail?

The company is Zion oil. They are publicly traded under the quote [symbol]zn[/symbol].

I find it fascinatingly. And yeah, i would wager that they're going to find oil.
 
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Minimint1

Registered Member
I highly doubt they will find oil but if they do I will be surprised but I'm not going to suddenly fall on my knees and ask for forgiveness for my sins or whatever. Personally I think it is quite a stupid idea to invest money into an oil mine which the only evidence of it being there is an ancient (fictional) book.
 

MenInTights

not a plastic bag
I highly doubt they will find oil but if they do I will be surprised but I'm not going to suddenly fall on my knees and ask for forgiveness for my sins or whatever. Personally I think it is quite a stupid idea to invest money into an oil mine which the only evidence of it being there is an ancient (fictional) book.

In doing so you would "Ignore Contradicting Evidence" and "Keep Ideas Forever" concerning the Bible. Which is cool - I mean it is an honest answer. Thanks for the answer.

A lot of people want to rag on faith when the answers cannot be proven (age of Earth for example). But when you provide them with a clear-cut example where faith may or may not be proven true, they run away from it.
 

bball4life

Alfred :: Gotham Hero
There is a passage of scripture in Genesis that says there are "blessings from the deep" that will be discovered at a specific locations in Israel. And it talks about these blessings will be oil.
can you provide the refrence for that? i would like to look into it.
 
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ExpectantlyIronic

e̳̳̺͕ͬ̓̑̂ͮͦͣ͒͒h̙ͦ̔͂?̅̂ ̾͗̑
So let me get this straight. Some dude misinterprets a Bible passage about olive oil, and then decides to drill for oil in Israel? Wow. The company is going to go under. No doubt about it. If they do find enough oil to recoup their costs, then I will eat a sock. As for my converting? No way. Too much of the Bible has already been falsified (the age of the Earth, rabbits chewing the cud, etc).

Imagine that I told you that Zeus has given me some lottery numbers, and I end up winning the lottery. You will probably think that lends some supportive evidence to the existence of Zeus, but I doubt you would suddenly decide that Zeus exists, particularly when the numbers I ended up playing were just a controversial "interpretation" of the numbers I alleged Zeus to have provided (but I actually just found while reading Homer).
 

MenInTights

not a plastic bag
So let me get this straight. Some dude misinterprets a Bible passage about olive oil, and then decides to drill for oil in Israel? Wow. The company is going to go under. No doubt about it. If they do find enough oil to recoup their costs, then I will eat a sock. As for my converting? No way. Too much of the Bible has already been falsified (the age of the Earth, rabbits chewing the cud, etc).

Imagine that I told you that Zeus has given me some lottery numbers, and I end up winning the lottery. You will probably think that lends some supportive evidence to the existence of Zeus, but I doubt you would suddenly decide that Zeus exists, particularly when the numbers I ended up playing were just a controversial "interpretation" of the numbers I alleged Zeus to have provided (but I actually just found while reading Homer).
There's no faith in a $1 lotto ticket though. If Zeus told you about a diamond mine in some Greek Island and you risked your career, reputation, marriage and savings on finding this diamond mine and then found it, it would make me sit up and investigate your claim.

I don't much about the company. I've heard about them for years, but only recently became interested. Here's something that you will like: The founder thinks that he is prophesied in the Bible. I haven't looked this up, but from what I understand he thinks there is a passage about a stranger coming from a strange land to bring back the glory of Israel.

I don't know. Interesting story.


EDIT:
You will probably think that lends some supportive evidence to the existence of Zeus, but I doubt you would suddenly decide that Zeus exists
Didn't catch this at first, but yeah, that's pretty accurate
 
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Boredie

In need of Entertainment
I found this on their website, thought it to be interesting:
Based on the results of the Ma'anit #1 well, the primary product of the planned second well, the Ma'anit-Rehoboth #2, if successful, is expected to be natural gas plus condensate. However, oil was seen on the pits while drilling the Ma'anit #1 well and some oil zones are possible.
The Joseph Project - Zion Oil and Gas, Inc.
 

MenInTights

not a plastic bag
My first example about Science and Faith is from something that is going on today. I've got another from the recent past.

Before I start, I have heard that the faith portion of this example is accurate, but I cannot substantiate that with a link. That's not really important anyway, since the important piece of the story is the science.

Moses wrote the book of Leviticus among others. Leviticus is loaded with rules. Many of which we don't understand because the times and customs were different but all were given to Moses by God.

Leviticus 15:13 states: And when he who has a discharge is cleansed of his discharge, then he shall count for himself seven days for his cleansing, wash his clothes, and bathe his body in running water; then he shall be clean.


Pretty clear passage. If you touch someone with a wound, you need to wash with running water.

Fast forward to the mid 19th Century, 200 years after the birth of Newton in the time of Charles Darwin. A Hungarian doctor, Ignaz Semmelweis, noticed that women were dieing after childbirth in hospitals at a higher rate than women that had births at home. In some cases, the mortality rate was as high as 30% in the hospitals.

Semmelweis had a revelation that the doctors should wash their hands in running water and chlorinated lime before operating or child birth. The custom of the day was to wipe their hand on a cloth or in a bowl of water. Immediately after doing this, the death rate plummeted. If the story ends there, its still a fascinating story proving that a passage of the Bible was thousands of years ahead of science.

But, what is really important is what happened after this discovery. From wikipeia: Ignaz Semmelweis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Semmelweis' observations went against all established scientific medical opinion of the time. ...........

Semmmelweis' main finding -- that all instances of puerperal fever could be traced back to only one single cause: lack of cleanliness -- was simply unacceptable.

His findings also ran against the conventional wisdom that diseases spread in the form of "bad air"....................

Semmelweis' groundbreaking idea -- that harmful infectious particles could sit in minuscule amounts on fingers -- was contrary to all established medical knowledge.

.........Some surgeons, for instance, were offended at the suggestion that they should wash their hands; they felt that their social status as gentlemen was inconsistent with the idea that their hands could be unclean.[11]

Specifically, Semmelweis' claims were thought to lack scientific basis, since he could offer no acceptable explanation for his findings.
The wikipedia article is full of examples of how Semmelweis was fired, disgraced and made fun of for his idea. Eventually, he went crazy from the failure of the scientific community was put into a straitjacket and beaten to death.

There are 2 important points to this story.
The first is the Bible contained the answer to a problem that was killing many thousands of people in hospitals every year.
The second is that contrary to popular belief, it was the scientific establishment that followed the formula that people of faith are accused of:
Get Idea -->Ignore contradicting Evidence -->Keep Idea forever.
 
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ExpectantlyIronic

e̳̳̺͕ͬ̓̑̂ͮͦͣ͒͒h̙ͦ̔͂?̅̂ ̾͗̑
Or the Bible passage in question could have advocated cleanliness for aesthetic reasons. People are simply more pleasant to be around when they are clean.

MenInTights said:
it was the scientific establishment that followed the formula that people of faith are accused of:
The Viennese medical establishment clearly abandoned empiricism for faith, but that only looks so much the worse for faith, eh?
 
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