Right to insult religion

[The_Chameleon]

Good points, but I would like to point out your more right than I believe you realize. For example on Sept. 15, 2001 Frank Silva Roque, a white American Christian took the life of a gas station owner in Mesa Arizona simply because he thought the owner was Muslin, he wasn't. Then you also have white supremacist who are most often Christians like Wade Michael Page who used a semi automatic weapon to kill 6 people in a Sikh Temple in Oak Creek, Wisconsin. Then there was Christian anti-abortion terrorist who killed doctors or fire bombed abortion clinics. There are 100’s of incidents over the last few decades where some form of terrorism was carried out by Christian extremists.

I am not defending or condoning any kind of terrorism, but it’s like I stated in my earlier post, you can’t condemn an entire religion without condemning them all.

I don't entirely agree with that. To suggest that all religions are created equal is questionable. If someone has a grievance regarding a religion, then let them put it out there, but not in a way that is intended to offend. I see the Quran as a war manual in religious clothing and don't mind saying so. If someone wants to present evidence to the contrary, so be it. I am open to having that discussion. However, as for aiming to incite and enrage the people who hold that religion sacred, I think this demonstrates contempt and disrespect not for the belief system, but for the people. When I saw the blurb about Muslim immigrants thrashing and pi$$ing on a Virgin Mary statue, I was outraged, but here's the thing, if it were a statue of Mohammad being thrashed and pi$$ed on, I would be equally outraged. Not because it is disrespectful to a religion, but because it's a vile expression of contempt for a people. Without some, even most basic semblance of human decency, a person surrenders their humanity and becomes little different from a rabid animal. It doesn't matter at that point whether they point to religion or the constitution to justify their actions, it doesn't apply because those words were written for people, not animals.




- Chameleon

 

[Hilander]

What I put in bold of your statement is pretty much an ironic answer to what you said previous to it. The same can be said of the USA. I can't speak for sure for other countries, but being I live here in the USA I see it everyday. If it's not the American view then it must be wrong is what I mean to say. Of course not all Americans think alike and the very same can be said for Muslims, yet we still generalize them, us, everyone.



I am sure there are Muslims who think the very same of us. As Americans we are a tad arrogant about what we think compared to the way things are. I mean we (Americans) look at Christianity, its progressive and what we expect in a religion. Muslim is less progressive, sticks more to scripture than most religions and that is the way they prefer to express their religion. If you condemn it, then you must condemn all religion is the way I see it. You can't pick and choose.

Sure there are different opinions in the US but you usually don't get stoned to death over them or jailed. There are different opinions in Muslim countries but you had better be careful about what you say.

No I don't have to condemn all religions because one goes overboard and needs to join the 21st century. All religions don't condone killing someone for cheating, talking against it or burning their holy book. Most religion don't kidnap kids or murder whole villages because they won't convert. Most religions won't kill you because you leave it.

Do I believe all Muslims would do this, no, but many do and its not like its rare for these things to happen.
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I don't entirely agree with that. To suggest that all religions are created equal is questionable. If someone has a grievance regarding a religion, then let them put it out there, but not in a way that is intended to offend. I see the Quran as a war manual in religious clothing and don't mind saying so. If someone wants to present evidence to the contrary, so be it. I am open to having that discussion. However, as for aiming to incite and enrage the people who hold that religion sacred, I think this demonstrates contempt and disrespect not for the belief system, but for the people. When I saw the blurb about Muslim immigrants thrashing and pi$$ing on a Virgin Mary statue, I was outraged, but here's the thing, if it were a statue of Mohammad being thrashed and pi$$ed on, I would be equally outraged. Not because it is disrespectful to a religion, but because it's a vile expression of contempt for a people. Without some, even most basic semblance of human decency, a person surrenders their humanity and becomes little different from a rabid animal. It doesn't matter at that point whether they point to religion or the constitution to justify their actions, it doesn't apply because those words were written for people, not animals.




- Chameleon

If someone did that to a statue of Muhammad or the Koran you would see a lot of Muslims rioting.

 

[Knight_of_Albion]

I don't think anyone or anything should be above criticism and challenge. Most of all Orthodox religion.

But there are many ways of making a point, certainly without resorting to provocation and outrage.

It doesn't take much to inflame the 'Arab street'. The various cartoons put Westerners in Muslim countries, certainly the more volatile ones, in grave danger. Indeed, some Westerners were killed as I recall, in the wake of the Danish cartoons.

Freedom of speech and expression certainly ... but with responsibility.

 

[The_Chameleon]

I find it interesting that many of the same people who rail against racist speech, tout freedom of expression when a persons religion is insulted or ridiculed. We even have laws against "hate speech" that are generally applied to racial circumstances, but while nobody seems to have the right to insult someones race, to apply the same ideal to religion flies in the face of the constitution. Should not the same standards be applied to race, creed, religion, gender, and sexual orientation, be it the right to criticize and denigrate, or the criminalization of such?



- Cham

 

[Hilander]

Personally I would like to see all forms of freedom of speech protected even if I don't like it.

Unless you are calling for someone to be harmed or murdered.

 

[Sim]

Part of the problem about the "outrage of the Arab street" is politics, moreso than religion. Or rather, it's religion mixed with politics.

Many Arabs feel historically mistreated, patronized and attacked by the West. Of course that has a true core, as first, European colonial powers (especially Britain and France) conquered these lands and installed colonial regimes. Later, the US often attacked various Arab countries and/or supported tyrannies there, because certain tyrants were useful allies for a while or sold oil. And of course, Arabs hate Israel, and the US support Israel.

That's not saying that these US actions were always bad or unjustified -- that's not the question I want to answer here. Just providing an explanation why many Arabs feel patronized and attacked by the West in general. They blame the West for the shitty situation their countries are in.

That said, while this Arab hate against Western politics may have a true core, it's also true that in most cases, it's just scapegoating and hatemongering from the side of Arabs; they are at least as much to blame for the bad situation many of their countries are in as the West, perhaps much more so. It's always easier to hate a foreign enemy and blame him for your own misery, than to engage in self-criticism and start taking responsibility for the own shortcomings.

So the West, and of course the US especially, are already hated for political reasons. Religion is then more fuel into the fire: "We" are Muslims, "they" are Christians/atheists. So whenever "they" allegedly attack Islam, it's just an excuse to vent the hatred against Western politics another time.

There are many people in the Arab world who benefit from outrage against the West, tyrants can stabilize their power and terrorists increase their support that way, and money can be made with it. So they'll fuel this hatred whenever they get a good story.

Hardly any Arab would ever even have heard or seen the Mohammed cartoons in European newspapers. They wouldn't even know about it. So why the outrage? Because people interested in fueling hate made a big story of it -- much like FOX News makes a big story to fuel hatred against liberals, whenever some liberal just farts, or MSNBC does the same regarding conservatives in America.

Many of them are just looking for excuses to feel outraged. They didn't accidentally come across cartoons they found offensive. It was spoon-fed to them by their media. And this hatred wouldn't burn remotely as hot if it was just about religion, and not about politics too.

 

[Merc]

Should there be limits on insulting religion?

Absolutely not.

People are allowed to dislike your religion no matter what you were taught. People that justify their violence with their faith can't be trusted with their own minds let alone their own bodies.