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Religion Religion as an excuse?

sunrise

aka ginger warlock
V.I.P.
* I have just finished writing this and I kind of go on a rant near the end, I want to state for the record I do not wish to offend anyone, this is simply my opinion, if I do offend you I apologize and please feel free to PM with your concerns *

I am currently re-watching the wonderful Kevin Smith film "Dogma", if you haven't seen it please do, it is a fantastic satire of a film but does not poke fun at people of religion but more asks them to not believe everything without questioning it.

From what I have seen over the past 28 years of my being religion can be one of two things:

The salvation of human kind when we have no-where else to turn, when we can talk to no other and when we need answers, He will be there, He will show us the way.

The idea that certain people believe They are right, others are wrong and if you don't believe them well you are morally incorrect and you will burn in hell.

What brings this up is a few things that are "hot buttons" of both religion and of politics, namely, homosexuality and abortion. Obama right now is taking a lot of shit of saying he supports gay marriage and so people are saying he is doing it for votes. Religion for a long time has been very anti homosexual and yet they seem to get away with it without question, it is the same with abortion, people in power can say they support abortion clinics and they get panned where as religious people gather around abortion clinic, scare poor venerable women but shouting at them and calling them scum.

For me both things are wrong an pathetic, if you feel that homosexuality is wrong fine, great, tell me why, explain to me why you feel the love between a man and a man or a woman and a woman is so much worse than a man and a woman and I will listen because I sure as hell don't understand it. If you believe that abortion is wrong and that the taking of a life inside a women’s womb is wrong fine, I am more than willing to listen to your argument of why, this is what civil intelligent people do, but, do not tell me your opinion is based upon something that a book tells you, make up your own mind, do not hide behind a religion that was written by people you have never even met.

War is another one, "why are you fighting these people?", "oh well there religion is horrible", "ahh you have never actually met these people, riiight, that makes sense...". Racism, that does not stem from the bible but I think it is funny that when people are supposed to be tolerant as the bible says you should be a lot of people in religion are not entirely tolerant.
 

Random9

Registered Member
* I have just finished writing this and I kind of go on a rant near the end, I want to state for the record I do not wish to offend anyone, this is simply my opinion, if I do offend you I apologize and please feel free to PM with your concerns *

I am currently re-watching the wonderful Kevin Smith film "Dogma", if you haven't seen it please do, it is a fantastic satire of a film but does not poke fun at people of religion but more asks them to not believe everything without questioning it.

From what I have seen over the past 28 years of my being religion can be one of two things:

The salvation of human kind when we have no-where else to turn, when we can talk to no other and when we need answers, He will be there, He will show us the way.

The idea that certain people believe They are right, others are wrong and if you don't believe them well you are morally incorrect and you will burn in hell.

What brings this up is a few things that are "hot buttons" of both religion and of politics, namely, homosexuality and abortion. Obama right now is taking a lot of shit of saying he supports gay marriage and so people are saying he is doing it for votes. Religion for a long time has been very anti homosexual and yet they seem to get away with it without question, it is the same with abortion, people in power can say they support abortion clinics and they get panned where as religious people gather around abortion clinic, scare poor venerable women but shouting at them and calling them scum.

For me both things are wrong an pathetic, if you feel that homosexuality is wrong fine, great, tell me why, explain to me why you feel the love between a man and a man or a woman and a woman is so much worse than a man and a woman and I will listen because I sure as hell don't understand it. If you believe that abortion is wrong and that the taking of a life inside a women’s womb is wrong fine, I am more than willing to listen to your argument of why, this is what civil intelligent people do, but, do not tell me your opinion is based upon something that a book tells you, make up your own mind, do not hide behind a religion that was written by people you have never even met.

War is another one, "why are you fighting these people?", "oh well there religion is horrible", "ahh you have never actually met these people, riiight, that makes sense...". Racism, that does not stem from the bible but I think it is funny that when people are supposed to be tolerant as the bible says you should be a lot of people in religion are not entirely tolerant.
from Münchhausen Trilemma - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
If we ask of any knowledge: "How do I know that it's true?", we may provide proof; yet that same question can be asked of the proof, and any subsequent proof. The Münchhausen Trilemma is that we have only three options when providing proof in this situation:

  • The circular argument, in which theory and proof support each other (i.e. we repeat ourselves at some point)
  • The regressive argument, in which each proof requires a further proof, ad infinitum (i.e. we just keep giving proofs, presumably forever)
  • The axiomatic argument, which rests on accepted precepts (i.e. we reach some bedrock assumption or certainty)
the option we usually use is the third one("The axiomatic argument"),we simply rely on others accepting the same axioms as we do, which quite often doesn't happen.(and when people with different axioms talk one can rarely prove the other wrong,and can never prove himself to be right)

a good example is atheists with morals,they have no reason whatsoever to follow them,but a lot of them feel that for some reason(they were influenced by religion) that morals are important and thus you end up with atheists using phrases like evil in the same way believers do,they simply all got the idea that something is evil,and none of them even bothers to notice evil has absolutely no meaning to an atheist(or at the very least it's very different than the one believers have).

each religion's axiom(among some other things) is it's holy book/s,and the bible(which by what i understand the parts about homosexuality are still relevant to christianity) is clearly against homosexuality.(at least with men,i'm not so sure about women )
in a way asking them to question their holy book is like continuously asking "why?"("The regressive argument") until you really get on somebodies nerves.

what you consider as tolerance is not necessarily what is meant in the bible/the new testament-think about it this way-what if i asked to release all murderers from prison because we need to be tolerant of them?
surely you won't agree with me that we really should free them,you would probably say something about them committing a crime(or to some religious people-something immoral) and this time you won't ask for tolerance when religious people(among others) will want to put them in jail.(or kill them)

my point is that you simply have different morals than them,and some things they do may seem completely irrational to you,but if i start questioning you about your morals you will soon enough say something like "but everyone knows that"(or enter a loop or an infinite regression,but i find those unlikely) without the ability to explain further,whilst they will say something about their holy books.
 

sunrise

aka ginger warlock
V.I.P.
from Münchhausen Trilemma - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
the option we usually use is the third one("The axiomatic argument"),we simply rely on others accepting the same axioms as we do, which quite often doesn't happen.(and when people with different axioms talk one can rarely prove the other wrong,and can never prove himself to be right)

a good example is atheists with morals,they have no reason whatsoever to follow them,but a lot of them feel that for some reason(they were influenced by religion) that morals are important and thus you end up with atheists using phrases like evil in the same way believers do,they simply all got the idea that something is evil,and none of them even bothers to notice evil has absolutely no meaning to an atheist(or at the very least it's very different than the one believers have).

each religion's axiom(among some other things) is it's holy book/s,and the bible(which by what i understand the parts about homosexuality are still relevant to christianity) is clearly against homosexuality.(at least with men,i'm not so sure about women )
in a way asking them to question their holy book is like continuously asking "why?"("The regressive argument") until you really get on somebodies nerves.

what you consider as tolerance is not necessarily what is meant in the bible/the new testament-think about it this way-what if i asked to release all murderers from prison because we need to be tolerant of them?
surely you won't agree with me that we really should free them,you would probably say something about them committing a crime(or to some religious people-something immoral) and this time you won't ask for tolerance when religious people(among others) will want to put them in jail.(or kill them)

my point is that you simply have different morals than them,and some things they do may seem completely irrational to you,but if i start questioning you about your morals you will soon enough say something like "but everyone knows that"(or enter a loop or an infinite regression,but i find those unlikely) without the ability to explain further,whilst they will say something about their holy books.
I first of all want to congratulate you in this answer Random and I mean that with no sense of sarcasm or irony, I know we have not seen eye to eye in chat in the past but you clearly have looked into this subject and have an idea and an opinion of your which is fantastic.

However it is not about my morals or other peoples morals, I do not and will not EVER blame The Book, The Wikka Bible, The Satanic Bible, The Koran or any of them because it is not correct to blame them, what angers me the most of the people within the church itself who use it for their own mean and if questioned "why are you being so harsh" they can say "the book sayeth it so I must follow the example", I have not read the bible but I really don't think(or at least I hope) it does not state "and if though man shall follow a religion that is not the one created by the divine heavens he shall be slained and damned for all eternity" because for me it seems that God and Jesus not matter what my opinions are actually very tolerant beings.
 

Random9

Registered Member
However it is not about my morals or other peoples morals, I do not and will not EVER blame The Book, The Wikka Bible, The Satanic Bible, The Koran or any of them because it is not correct to blame them, what angers me the most of the people within the church itself who use it for their own mean and if questioned "why are you being so harsh" they can say "the book sayeth it so I must follow the example",
for example:the bible is clearly against homosexuality(which was mentioned in the OP),
Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is an abomination.[3](Leviticus 18:22 KJV)If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.[4](Leviticus 20:13 KJV)
so if you don't blame the book and understand people for believing in it,you can't really blame them for being against homosexuality.(or even wanting to kill homosexuals)
I have not read the bible but I really don't think(or at least I hope) it does not state "and if though man shall follow a religion that is not the one created by the divine heavens he shall be slained and damned for all eternity"
i'm not sure about damned for all eternity(not too familiar with the bible either),but one of the ten commandments is against idolatry-and i'm pretty sure it's punishable by death.

because for me it seems that God and Jesus not matter what my opinions are actually very tolerant beings.
i think a recent episode of south park covered decently how forgiving(by today's standards) biblical god is.
if you didn't watch the episode then to summarize when the jews left egypt god made pharaoh(made heavy his heart was the phrase if i'm not mistaken) refuse to let them leave and then killed the firstborn male child of every family to make him let them leave(and children are considered innocent).
 

Radium

Registered Member
Rational thoughts vs. Irational thoughs are dependent on one's own opinion about what is rationational and what isn't. Religion is a topic of debate and the first thing that people want to throw out of the arugment is the holy scriptures.

"I want proof that homosexuality is wrong / immoral / degraging other than what's written inside a book" This is a very common thought expressed that I can't look past. I've been a Christian since 1995 but didn't really start to dive into the hard topics of christianity until around 2006. I personally belive that homosexuality is wrong because my God has condemned it. Man was created to have relationship between 1) his heavenly father 2) fellowship among peers.

Can a person live an entire life as a homosexual and be a "true christian." Yes and No - there are no christians out there that are without sin and homosexuality is just another sin that is equal in the since that any sin seperates us from God. The bible states that if we know something is a sin, we cannot continue in it. If we accept a sin as a truth and start to approve of it in our everyday life then it starts to rule us and we begin to accept it as an acceptable non-sinful behavior. The otherside of the case is this - If one is a christian and a homosexual but knows it's a sin and hates it - actively trying to stop the actions once already started they are fighting a sin as comparable towards things as pride, self-induldge, etc. then they are pushing themselves to live a Christ-like life in their daily living.

I belive that the bible is the living word of God, I accpet it as a governing law in my life, in it's absoulete. I do not claim to be without sin and I don't claim to be perfect. I have many times fallen in different areas, Romans 3:23. The difference is I will never be okay accepting or approving of homosexuality based upon my faith.

Side note - I am a democrat and I voted for Obama in 2008 and will again in 2012. In addition, a member of my immediate family whom I love and care about without a shadow of a doubt is homosexual - I do not approve of her actions but I am not predjusice. I consistantly pray and shower her with love but I will never accept that life style.

Abortion - same concepts here... The bible states that murder is a sin (Old testament and new). Having an abortion does in fact kill another indiviual. The moment of conception life is formed. Period - nothing else really needs to be said in my opinion.

Side note - I have had two very serious relationships. Once of whom had a mischarge out of wedlock and the other had an aborition out of wedlock.

I'm not trying to offend anyone... Just my two cents in additon to the post above.
 
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