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Pro-Islam/Anti-Christianity trend?

Mickiel

Registered Member
So your argument is that everyone's doctrine is wrong? How about Frank Viola? Could his doctrine be 100% wrong? What about yours? Mine?

Christianity has authored religious doctrines? (sorry, I just want to clarify your meaning here) Are we talking what people over the past 2000 years have written or are we talking about what is written in the Bible? I have a feeling there's a distinction to be made there.

I think Christianity is based on true revelation from God. Technically the Bible is written by men but I believe it to be the divine word of God (in other words, God gave them the words to write). I do think certain translations get much closer to the original meaning than others.

I want no part in religion anyway, I'd rather have a relationship with God. The word Religion usually carries a connotation of behavior modification, legalism, and control, not at all what I'm interested in. I am a Christian, I don't want to know only about Christ, I want to KNOW Christ. The Pharisees knew all about Christ and knew the scriptures in and out, they were still constantly getting it wrong, we know this because Jesus himself exposed that.

I'm not saying all Christians are perfect by any means (heck no, that'd be a stupid argument) but we can't run under the assumption that every person that claims to be a Christian has it wrong. Sure, a lot of Christians do have it wrong, but not everyone.

Also, the Bible (if we are to believe what it says) is firm and clear on the concept of an eternal Hell.


I don't know Frank Violas doctrine, but I know he is a Christian. I think his book is simply true, Christianity is largely pagan. And I do believe that all human doctrines are wrong; or better stated, largely mixed with wrong; and some things right. I have no doctrine myself to speak of. And I am talking about people and the bible , both have been infected by men, demons, and I think God himself has been involved in this deception; its just no way possible that he is not involved. Satan could not have deceived all religions with out God's involvement; or Christ either. No, they were involved at levels we simply cannot understand; they wanted all this to happen; because if they did not, it would not have.


Christianity is not based on true revelation from God , its based on paganism. Christianity is a lost church of God in deception. All Christians have it wrong; that is just a testament to the powers that be; there are powers that have deceived the whole world; and Christians are not exempt from that; they just like to think they are.
 

CaptainObvious

Son of Liberty
V.I.P.
This thread is about why there is anti-Christian sentiment, and I've explained why. Because people feel as if Christians are trying to impose their religious beliefs on others. Or at least that's one reason. You don't need to be forced to practice religion in order to have religious beliefs imposed on you. Those religious beliefs are imposed on you as soon as they start interfering with your life by telling you what you can't do. You can't have freedom of religion without freedom from religion. There is no religious liberty if you aren't free from the rules and dogmas of other religions. That is my opinion from a non-religious perspective. You have a religious perspective, so of course you aren't going to agree with me.
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How is that not hypocritical?

But maybe Islam isn't the problem. To quote CO, maybe it's the problem with human kind.
There is no such thing as freedom FROM religion. EVERY law is society imposing beliefs on EVERYONE. Sometimes those reasons are based on religion, and one could make an argument murder is such a law. That's the way it is. As long as the government isn't forcing everyone to practice religion the discussion about imposing beliefs is irrelevant.
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If we accept this as true then the SCOTUS decision tomorrow on the Holly Lobby case is a no brainer and the ACA should be struck down. I keep forgetting though that people only see it one way. They object to this alleged imposition if it imposes on THEIR beliefs, or lack thereof, not if it imposes on anyone else's beliefs.
 
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MenInTights

not a plastic bag
Going back to the original post, I don't see where this manifest in a oppressive manner. We're not living in Saudi Arabia. Nobody is going to arrest you for being gay or stone you to death because you're a Budist.



..such a huge role in American politics and generally people don't want unshared religious beliefs imposed on them through government policy (gay rights, abortion, etc). That, and many Christians continue to dispute several scientific consensuses and want school curriculum to reflect that accordingly.

Discuss.
Well of course Judeo-Christianity is a huge part of politics. Our founders believed they were following in the footsteps of the Isralites coming out of Egypt. You can't cross into the Supreme Court without walking under a statue of Moses holding the 10 Commandments.
gay rights
I think at one time gays were discriminated against and probably for religious reasons, but I can't see where this hasn't been corrected.
abortion
Abortion is no more a religious battle than any other issues where human life is at stake: capital punishment, war, child abuse..
dispute several scientific consensuses and want school curriculum to reflect that accordingly
Not being coy, I honestly do not know what you mean. I want school curriculum to follow proven standards of math. I want history and geography to be taught. I want all of science to be taught. I want a school that will teach classical literature. So, I started my own school, population 3. Public school is a disaster. I don't see where any of that disaster can be laid at the feet of Christianity.
 

dDave

Well-Known Member
V.I.P.
This thread is about why there is anti-Christian sentiment, and I've explained why. Because people feel as if Christians are trying to impose their religious beliefs on others. Or at least that's one reason. You don't need to be forced to practice religion in order to have religious beliefs imposed on you. Those religious beliefs are imposed on you as soon as they start interfering with your life by telling you what you can't do. You can't have freedom of religion without freedom from religion. There is no religious liberty if you aren't free from the rules and dogmas of other religions. That is my opinion from a non-religious perspective. You have a religious perspective, so of course you aren't going to agree with me.
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How is that not hypocritical?

But maybe Islam isn't the problem. To quote CO, maybe it's the problem with human kind.
Freedom FROM religion is in no way guaranteed. It's very different from freedom OF religion. Nowhere is it written that you have the right to not be exposed to religion. You have the freedom to believe what you want to believe and follow whatever religion/philosophy you want to but freedom FROM religion doesn't exist.

How is what I said hypocritical? I am in every way allowed to disagree with Islam (the very fact that I am a Christian should make it obvious that I do. If I agreed with Islam then I'd be a Muslim). This doesn't make me anti-Muslim.

I don't know Frank Violas doctrine, but I know he is a Christian. I think his book is simply true, Christianity is largely pagan. And I do believe that all human doctrines are wrong; or better stated, largely mixed with wrong; and some things right. I have no doctrine myself to speak of. And I am talking about people and the bible , both have been infected by men, demons, and I think God himself has been involved in this deception; its just no way possible that he is not involved. Satan could not have deceived all religions with out God's involvement; or Christ either. No, they were involved at levels we simply cannot understand; they wanted all this to happen; because if they did not, it would not have.


Christianity is not based on true revelation from God , its based on paganism. Christianity is a lost church of God in deception. All Christians have it wrong; that is just a testament to the powers that be; there are powers that have deceived the whole world; and Christians are not exempt from that; they just like to think they are.
I only have one question.

How can you call something wrong if you don't have the right answer to compare it to?
 

Mickiel

Registered Member
I only have one question.

How can you call something wrong if you don't have the right answer to compare it to?



Fair enough question; I draw my view from the bible itself. Rev. 12:9 states that those powers I spoke of have " Deceived the whole world." I interpret that to mean every human who is living, and have lived. In Gen. 2:9 God " Plants ( or creates and establishes), a tree of good and evil knowledge mixed together;" he " MAKES it Grow", the verse reveals. He makes, or causes, these ways of being to grow; together on the same tree, or planet; God is involved. Evil did not happen because God looked the other way; he was there when all this mess started. I could give dozens of scriptures that could walk you through this, but I hold no wish to steer the thread away from topic. All religions, including Islam and Christianity, were INTENTIONALLY led off track from this earths conception, and they have been off track ever since; this Dave, is God actually " Creating the NEED, or reason" for Christ to be sent here in the first place.


God created the atmosphere of sin and evil and confusion, satan authored it, and Jesus was its solution; something religions do not understand. All this was designed to bring humanity into God's kingdom, NOT now, but when God so decrees. And no one will be left out; damnation, hell fire punishing for eternity, failure, humans being doomed; all are simply illusions that religion has been duped on; intentionally blinded on.


Religions were predestined to be at odds with each other, each one thinking themselves the chosen of God. There really is no condemnation for all of humanity, and NO religion has been chosen by God to do anything but fail.


And that is exactly what they have done; all of them; no religion in human history has saved humanity.


Because God did not need religion to do his will for humanity. God does not need any of us to do anything; our future was already predetermined in his mind by his Love for us all;


This is my view. He purposely bent humanity, blinded us, so that he could have mercy on us all; Eccle. 7:13, Rom. 11:32.


Religions are opposed to each other because of God planting the knowledge of good and evil on earth. That confused us all. Which , in turn, is why none of us are doomed.
 

Sim

Registered Member
To throw in my two cents:

I believe the main problem is that too many people on different sides (both "Islam criticism" and "defenders of Islam") do not know enough about Islam and Muslims, instead make assumptions based on half-truths and prejudices, which then leads to a lot of bad blood.

First of all, there is not such a thing as "THE Islam", as there are many different branches and law schools. Then, there is not such a thing as "THE Muslims", as people who self-identify as Muslims vary very much in many regards, for example about the question how seriously they take their religion, which imam they follow and which regional non-religious tradition they are from.

Is Islam a religion that can be more easily abused for violence than the New Testament? Yes. Do many important Muslim law schools advance teachings that are not compatible with a Western way of life and freedom? Yes. Does that mean all Muslims are like that? Not at all. Does that mean Islam is generally not compatible with Western values? No.

But instead of looking a little more at the details, we got rabid, chauvinistic islamophobes on one side who paint all Muslims with the same broad brush, and knee-jerk Islam-defenders on the other who know next to nothing about Islam and just assume it's not different than Christianity (which it is in some important regards).


I have an idea: Why don't we look at the individual person in question and judge him/her, instead of judging people for their religious affiliation? Sounds simple, eh? If we did that, we'd find that there are many Muslims who are decent people who are not at all violent even when we don't share some of their values, but that there are others who indeed are a severe problem.
 

Mickiel

Registered Member
To throw in my two cents:

I believe the main problem is that too many people on different sides (both "Islam criticism" and "defenders of Islam") do not know enough about Islam and Muslims, instead make assumptions based on half-truths and prejudices, which then leads to a lot of bad blood.

First of all, there is not such a thing as "THE Islam", as there are many different branches and law schools. Then, there is not such a thing as "THE Muslims", as people who self-identify as Muslims vary very much in many regards, for example about the question how seriously they take their religion, which imam they follow and which regional non-religious tradition they are from.

Is Islam a religion that can be more easily abused for violence than the New Testament? Yes. Do many important Muslim law schools advance teachings that are not compatible with a Western way of life and freedom? Yes. Does that mean all Muslims are like that? Not at all. Does that mean Islam is generally not compatible with Western values? No.

But instead of looking a little more at the details, we got rabid, chauvinistic islamophobes on one side who paint all Muslims with the same broad brush, and knee-jerk Islam-defenders on the other who know next to nothing about Islam and just assume it's not different than Christianity (which it is in some important regards).


I have an idea: Why don't we look at the individual person in question and judge him/her, instead of judging people for their religious affiliation? Sounds simple, eh? If we did that, we'd find that there are many Muslims who are decent people who are not at all violent even when we don't share some of their values, but that there are others who indeed are a severe problem.


Given all you know about Islam, can you give us an explination why it, or any religion for that matter, is a cure all for humanity? What religion is decent in your view? And why? Do religions have power to screen out human nature? Just accept those who " Fit the script?" Explain why one religion is better than another? Humans are religion; and I don't see how any religion can be raised above human nature, human nature is faulty, religion is just the result of that weakness. All religions are weak in my view; not because of what they stand for, but because of their inability to stand for what they describe their religion to stand for.
 

Sim

Registered Member
Given all you know about Islam, can you give us an explination why it, or any religion for that matter, is a cure all for humanity? What religion is decent in your view? And why?
Short answer: I believe religion in general encourages many people not to be assholes and to live by virtues (and by virtues, I mean decent behavior that goes beyond the absolute minimum of the legally required).

Of course that doesn't always work. Some people are religious, yet aren't inspired by their religion and still are assholes. On the other side, there are also atheists who are rather decent people with good virtues. But on the bottom line, I believe it is easier for many people to be virtuous when a religion inspires them.

I'm Baha'i and accordingly believe it is the most decent religion, at least the one I found most convincing. But that naturally doesn't mean other religions are bad. Although I'd say that each religion can be abused by not very virtuous people to justify bad behavior too.

Do religions have power to screen out human nature?
No, on the contrary. Many religions understand human nature much better than most non-religious ideologies do, IMO.

For example, Christianity acknowledges, even makes it the basis of its teachings, that every human being is faulty and a sinner. Even the best people. That's IMO much more realistic than atheist ideologies such as Marxism/Communism that naively believes you have to just change the political and economic system to make humanity good. Or individualistic liberalism, that believes freedom is an end in itself which only results in decomposition of society.

Just accept those who " Fit the script?"
That's not what true religion should do. Those religious people who are dismissive of those who don't share their religion have it the wrong way. When you read the Bible, it is obvious that the commandment of love trumps judging and alienation. And even in Quran, there are several verses demanding respect for different religious beliefs.

Explain why one religion is better than another?
I go with the verse that "at their fruits, you will recognize them". No matter if you're Christian, Muslim, Buddhist or Baha'i, when your religion inspires you to be a better person and to do good, your religion is the true one, and better than the religion of those who use their religion to justify division, unrest or hate, no matter if they are Christian, Muslim, Buddhist or Baha'i.

Humans are religion; and I don't see how any religion can be raised above human nature, human nature is faulty, religion is just the result of that weakness.
Yes, humans are religion. But it is a way to look at the world which ideally helps people, guides them, to make this world a better world. Goodness is as much part of human nature as evil, and religion ideally helps people to focus on their goodness.

As I said, that doesn't always work, but IMO, it works more often than it does not.

All religions are weak in my view; not because of what they stand for, but because of their inability to stand for what they describe their religion to stand for.
Good point and a reasonable opinion, but my observations lead me to disagree. I've seen more examples of people who were inspired for good by their religion, than people who fell for their weaknesses despite their religion.
 

Mickiel

Registered Member
Good point and a reasonable opinion, but my observations lead me to disagree. I've seen more examples of people who were inspired for good by their religion, than people who fell for their weaknesses despite their religion.


Religion is humanities effort to reach and know a God they cannot admit they really don't know; religion is the exposed ego of believers, and Christianity and Islam simply have the largest ego's on earth. They think they are the ones. Their pride in their religions is so seriously deep, its beyond their self recognition of this. And they will just naturally have an offense at those who will not acknowledge their self inflated crowns. Because they think God has crowned them.


This pride is what God has been using to blanket humanity in blindness and confusion; keeping us in a " Sleepy state", in effect, preserving us for a time of his choosing to awaken us all. Religion; all religions, are just examples of humans trying to explain things they were never really meant to understand, only dream about. Our consciousness really knows nothing about God and our pride will never allow us to really accept this. Which is why I really look deep into Romans 11:32, " For God has shut them all up in unbelief, ( or confusion), that he will have mercy on them all." Everyone is included in this God ordained blindness; all have been seriously affected by it, to no fault of their own; and ALL are destined to be given the complete loving mercy of this most incredible unknown being.


No matter how much religions compete against each other and condemn each other or lift themselves up; the undercurrent of the real salvation of humanity is simply stronger than all religions. And it will carry us into our real future and save us from ourselves.
 
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