Pro-Islam/Anti-Christianity trend?

[Major]

Dave made this comment in another thread:

What I'm actually confused about is why some people are so pro-Islam but are against Christianity so vehemently. Doesn't make sense to me (if anyone wishes to discuss this in-depth then take it to another thread)

I figured it could make for a decent discussion. I don't have a whole lot to say about it at the moment, but I did want to reply and hopefully get a conversation started.

First of all, I'm not entirely sure what is meant by pro-Islam. It seems silly to me to support a religion without actually being part of that religion. I haven't noticed any of that going on anywhere. What I have seen a little bit of is people defending Muslims from unfair stereotyping and fear mongering and being treated like they're terrorists. I wouldn't call that pro-Islam.

Regarding Christianity, I think whatever backlash there is against it comes from the fact that it plays such a huge role in American politics and generally people don't want
unshared religious beliefs imposed on them through government policy (gay rights, abortion, etc). That, and many Christians continue to dispute several scientific consensuses and want school curriculum to reflect that accordingly.

Discuss.

 

[CaptainObvious]

Don't Muslims in America want the same thing? Don't they want to impose their beliefs on everybody? Their voice isn't as loud of course, but if I object to it I'm labeled anti Muslim or a racist, but if people object to Christians for the same reason it's ok.

By the way, I disagree those issues are imposing any beliefs. If I object to abortion or gay marriage for religious reasons that isn't imposing anything on anyone else. My teenage neighbor who wants an abortion doesn't suddenly transform into a Christian if work to make abortion illegal. She isn't forced to go to church or pray because of it. Nobody is forcing their beliefs on me when murder or theft is made illegal if I want to do those things legally. Nobody is forcing me to smoke pot of Texas legalized marijuana.

 

[Merc]

First of all, I'm not entirely sure what is meant by pro-Islam. It seems silly to me to support a religion without actually being part of that religion. I haven't noticed any of that going on anywhere. What I have seen a little bit of is people defending Muslims from unfair stereotyping and fear mongering and being treated like they're terrorists. I wouldn't call that pro-Islam.

Sadly, a lot of people do. A very broken and annoyingly stupid line of logic a lot of Americans are infected with is this "if you're not with us, you're against us" shit. It's this caveman-era level of thinking that removes critical thought from public political and social discourse. A lot of the xenophobes think if you defend say, a mosque from being built several blocks away from say, Ground Zero, that you are somehow defending terrorism. Or others think that if you do not like the idea of God in the pledge of allegiance, you must hate Christians.

Or my personal favorite, if you say "happy holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas" (because duh, only Christians have holidays at the end of the year .... oh wait) that you're anti-Christian. Also, the 'xmas' thing which is also hilarious since that's been shorthand for Christmas since the 16th century but a lot of the modern day Christians would tell you that it's a secular attempt to remove "christ from christmas".

Regarding Christianity, I think whatever backlash there is against it comes from the fact that it plays such a huge role in American politics and generally people don't want unshared religious beliefs imposed on them through government policy (gay rights, abortion, etc).

It's sad because basically every American hates having beliefs pushed on them, the religious included. But what is hard to fathom for some and is really difficult to debate, is that beliefs from specific religions should have no special privileges in policy-making. The Christians are not the first group to condone murder or stealing, that's just a give-in. But things such as gay marriage where some people and even politicians use the bible as a defense, that shouldn't even be considered when the laws are being made.

That's perfectly fine if you think the bible is telling you that gay marriage is wrong, but it's also telling you that tattoos, bowl haircuts, not marrying a virgin, divorce and many other things are also sins. Why isn't there equal outrage? What about raping yourself a wife? It's a biblical form of marriage after all.

Point is, America is great because you believe whatever you want and any decent American will defend your right for that myself included. But like Major said, people get defensive and really turned off when people and politicians try to filter their religious beliefs into laws especially since we all know those same people would be crying bloody murder if it was the other way around.

That, and many Christians continue to dispute several scientific consensuses and want school curriculum to reflect that accordingly.

The day my child comes home and tells me he/she is being taught creationism in school is the day we start homeschooling them.

 

[Hilander]

I have no problem with religion as long as they aren't shoving religious beliefs down my throat in the form of laws or teaching it in schools that are run on my tax dollars. If the church wants to run their own school that is fine, I won't stop them but keep my tax dollars out of it.

Religious law being the law of the land is one of the Middle Easts big problems. Glad that's not how it is here. Religion and government should stay separate. That doesn't make me anti religion.

I for sure am not pro Islam, to me that religion is messed up and they need to join the 21st century. I'm also not anti Christian, they are free to believe what they want, just don't force it on me.

 

[CaptainObvious]

Sadly, a lot of people do. A very broken and annoyingly stupid line of logic a lot of Americans are infected with is this "if you're not with us, you're against us" shit. It's this caveman-era level of thinking that removes critical thought from public political and social discourse. A lot of the xenophobes think if you defend say, a mosque from being built several blocks away from say, Ground Zero, that you are somehow defending terrorism. Or others think that if you do not like the idea of God in the pledge of allegiance, you must hate Christians.

Or my personal favorite, if you say "happy holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas" (because duh, only Christians have holidays at the end of the year .... oh wait) that you're anti-Christian. Also, the 'xmas' thing which is also hilarious since that's been shorthand for Christmas since the 16th century but a lot of the modern day Christians would tell you that it's a secular attempt to remove "christ from christmas".



It's sad because basically every American hates having beliefs pushed on them, the religious included. But what is hard to fathom for some and is really difficult to debate, is that beliefs from specific religions should have no special privileges in policy-making. The Christians are not the first group to condone murder or stealing, that's just a give-in. But things such as gay marriage where some people and even politicians use the bible as a defense, that shouldn't even be considered when the laws are being made.

That's perfectly fine if you think the bible is telling you that gay marriage is wrong, but it's also telling you that tattoos, bowl haircuts, not marrying a virgin, divorce and many other things are also sins. Why isn't there equal outrage? What about raping yourself a wife? It's a biblical form of marriage after all.

Point is, America is great because you believe whatever you want and any decent American will defend your right for that myself included. But like Major said, people get defensive and really turned off when people and politicians try to filter their religious beliefs into laws especially since we all know those same people would be crying bloody murder if it was the other way around.



The day my child comes home and tells me he/she is being taught creationism in school is the day we start homeschooling them.

You're missing the point. Nobody cares if you say happy holidays. People care when people are told you can only say happy holidays and not Merry Christmas. There is a huge difference.

Who says divorce isn't considered a sin? The Catholic Church considers it a HUGE sin. I recently got divorced, if I remarry without absolving my previous marriage I can't take the Eucharist. If I do anyway under that stain of sin, I'm committing a mortal sin. You couldn't be more wrong about divorce and it being a sin.
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By the way, crying bloody murder? I haven't heard anyone crying bloody murder with this move to legalize marijuana. All I hear is objections to it. I don't hear anyone say "you're shoving your beliefs down my throat" because as anyone with a minuscule amount of critical thinking skills knows EVERY law EVER is imposing SOME kind of belief.

 

[Merc]

Who says divorce isn't considered a sin?

Not me.

The Catholic Church considers it a HUGE sin. I recently got divorced, if I remarry without absolving my previous marriage I can't take the Eucharist. If I do anyway under that stain of sin, I'm committing a mortal sin. You couldn't be more wrong about divorce and it being a sin.

So I'm wrong about my statement on divorce. Okay, I'm confused. I'm wrong because . . . I asked why there isn't equal outrage? How am I wrong about that? I'm confused because you seem to be suggesting that I said somehow that divorce is either not a sin or not a serious sin . . .or something when I said nor inferred either. I think you read something incorrectly here.

By the way, crying bloody murder? I haven't heard anyone crying bloody murder with this move to legalize marijuana. All I hear is objections to it. I don't hear anyone say "you're shoving your beliefs down my throat" because as anyone with a minuscule amount of critical thinking skills knows EVERY law EVER is imposing SOME kind of belief.

Okay I was lost before but now I'm in the middle of the ocean on a piece of driftwood.

 

[Major]

Don't Muslims in America want the same thing? Don't they want to impose their beliefs on everybody? Their voice isn't as loud of course, but if I object to it I'm labeled anti Muslim or a racist, but if people object to Christians for the same reason it's ok.

Maybe they do want the same thing, but they make up less than 1% of the American population, so not only is their voice not as loud, I don't think they even have a voice. I don't often hear about Muslim groups trying to impose their beliefs on anyone or influence the law, so I'm not sure what there is to even object to.

By the way, I disagree those issues are imposing any beliefs. If I object to abortion or gay marriage for religious reasons that isn't imposing anything on anyone else. My teenage neighbor who wants an abortion doesn't suddenly transform into a Christian if work to make abortion illegal. She isn't forced to go to church or pray because of it. Nobody is forcing their beliefs on me when murder or theft is made illegal if I want to do those things legally. Nobody is forcing me to smoke pot of Texas legalized marijuana.

There is a huge difference between issues such as marijuana legalization and gay marriage. If marijuana is legalized, nobody is forced to smoke it, as you said, so the people who oppose its legalization are not even directly affected by it, so nothing is being imposed on anyone.

Banning gay marriage, on the other hand, directly affects gays who wish to get married. It may not force them to become Christians and go to church and pray, but it is still imposing Christian beliefs on them. Their lives basically become governed by the Bible, whether they believe in it or not.

 

[Mickiel]

I see no difference between Islam and Christianity; both are examples of humans trying to live by standards that have been perverted by humans.

 

[CaptainObvious]

Maybe they do want the same thing, but they make up less than 1% of the American population, so not only is their voice not as loud, I don't think they even have a voice. I don't often hear about Muslim groups trying to impose their beliefs on anyone or influence the law, so I'm not sure what there is to even object to.



There is a huge difference between issues such as marijuana legalization and gay marriage. If marijuana is legalized, nobody is forced to smoke it, as you said, so the people who oppose its legalization are not even directly affected by it, so nothing is being imposed on anyone.

Banning gay marriage, on the other hand, directly affects gays who wish to get married. It may not force them to become Christians and go to church and pray, but it is still imposing Christian beliefs on them. Their lives basically become governed by the Bible, whether they believe in it or not.

It's imposing as much of Christianity as laws outlawing murder because one of the Ten Commandments is Thou Shalt not Kill. Sorry, that argument makes no sense. Whether I am forced to smoke marijuana or not is irrelevant, if I want it to stay illegal and don't want to live in a state or country where it is legalized and it's legalized you ARE imposing your beliefs on me.

Fact is all laws are imposing beliefs of the total of society on everyone else, that's just the way it is. You can't single out laws on religious beliefs and accept laws for any other reason of imposition. You can't have it both ways. Either a society passes laws based on what it acceptable to that society or no laws can be passed. As long as those laws don't force you to practice a certain religion there is nothing wrong with them.
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Not me.



So I'm wrong about my statement on divorce. Okay, I'm confused. I'm wrong because . . . I asked why there isn't equal outrage? How am I wrong about that? I'm confused because you seem to be suggesting that I said somehow that divorce is either not a sin or not a serious sin . . .or something when I said nor inferred either. I think you read something incorrectly here.



Okay I was lost before but now I'm in the middle of the ocean on a piece of driftwood.

I really don't know what you want. There is lots of outrage, so much so one can't take Communion. What more do you want?

 

[MenInTights]

I see no difference between Islam and Christianity; both are examples of humans trying to live by standards that have been perverted by humans.

If you can get through the really bad language, here is an atheist that hates Christianity telling what the difference between Islam and Christianity:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9i7fRy26V4

This is a sort of cleaned up version: Bill Maher?s blistering anti-Islamist rant: Accuracy is not politically correct | Communities Digital News

I don't see a lot of pro-Islam. It does seem that people fail to realize what it means to live under Islam or Sharia rule. Women are property, gays are exterminated, anyone who worships God in another way is put to death. I know that a lot of people realize this reality. But I look at the backlash Malhr gets or I see politicians call Islam a religion of peace and I don't get it.