Prime Cause?

Steerpike

Registered Member
#1
Necessarily, if God as Prime Cause exists, then God existed before the existence of time and God existed before the existence of spatial dimension. Necessarily not the case for anything to exist before the existence of time. Necessarily not the case for anything to exist before the existence of spatial dimension. Therefore, it is not possible for God as Prime Cause to exist.


Discuss.
 

Wade8813

Registered Member
#2
Necessarily, if God as Prime Cause exists, then God existed before the existence of time and God existed before the existence of spatial dimension. Necessarily not the case for anything to exist before the existence of time. Necessarily not the case for anything to exist before the existence of spatial dimension. Therefore, it is not possible for God as Prime Cause to exist.

Discuss.
The term "before the existence of time" seems impossible to me, in part because the word 'before' implies time.

Also, I don't see why God as prime cause would mean that he preceded the existence of time/space. It just means he preceded everything that has a cause. If time and space have no cause, then He wouldn't have to exist before them.

Lastly, if your argument is accurate, it's actually an argument against ANY prime cause, not just God.
 

Steerpike

Registered Member
#3
The term "before the existence of time" seems impossible to me, in part because the word 'before' implies time.
That is why it is not possible. :D (Or "Necessarily not the case...")

Also, I don't see why God as prime cause would mean that he preceded the existence of time/space. It just means he preceded everything that has a cause. If time and space have no cause, then He wouldn't have to exist before them.
God as "Prime Cause" means God is the ultimate cause of everything. If God didn't cause the existence of time and spatial dimension, then God is not "Prime Cause."
 
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#4
What about separate time and space?

If god is prime cause of this time and/or space, it would stand to reason that another one exists, separate from this one.
 

Wade8813

Registered Member
#5
That is why it is not possible. :D (Or "Necessarily not the case...")
Well, I believe that it's not possible, but from what I've heard, there are some things in quantum mechanics that disagree.

Makes absolutely no sense to me, but most things in QM don't.

God as "Prime Cause" means God is the ultimate cause of everything. If God didn't cause the existence of time and spatial dimension, then God is not "Prime Cause."
It could be taken to mean he's the cause of everything, or that he's the cause of everything that has a cause.

I agree - if time isn't caused by anything, it certainly wasn't caused by God. Not sure if it matters though.
 

Steerpike

Registered Member
#6
What about separate time and space?

If god is prime cause of this time and/or space, it would stand to reason that another one exists, separate from this one.
Even if one allows for that, it doesn't get around the need to precede those phenomenon to be able to be the cause of them. "Prime Cause" means "First Cause."
 
#7
Even if one allows for that, it doesn't get around the need to precede those phenomenon to be able to be the cause of them. "Prime Cause" means "First Cause."
So basically the argument is that god can't come before all time, (As coming before it means that time passed) Not just before this time?

Because simply coming before this time is conceivable if nothing else. Coming before all time is less so.
 

Steerpike

Registered Member
#8
So basically the argument is that god can't come before all time, (As coming before it means that time passed) Not just before this time?
Don't overlook the argument with regards to spatial dimension. :D

Coming before all time is less so.
"Coming before all time," as you phrase it, is logically impossible.

What are the implications of this to the concept of a "Creator God?"
 
#9
What are the implications of this to the concept of a "Creator God?"
Very little. As all it takes for a god to come before time in our frame of reference is to not be from our time. Being from another plane of existence, like heaven or hell, separates a creator god from the limitation of not being able to come before time. If you were to take something like Haruhiism's idea of our universe being god's dream, then the creator god is time and space. Then our universe could have been created at any time, such as 3 years ago. With history filled in upon creation
 
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DinoFlintstone

"There can be only one!"
#10
Necessarily, if God as Prime Cause exists, then God existed before the existence of time and God existed before the existence of spatial dimension. Necessarily not the case for anything to exist before the existence of time. Necessarily not the case for anything to exist before the existence of spatial dimension. Therefore, it is not possible for God as Prime Cause to exist.


Discuss.
Okay, so their must have been a beginning? What was or is the beginning? Was is the hands on a clock? Was it a thought?
God IS the beginning and the end.
Revelations 22:13
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."
If it had not been for the Alpha, we would not exist. 'Existance' would not be.
"Cogito ergo Sum"
"I think, therefore I am."