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Poland's military spending spree

Hilander

Free Spirit
Staff member
V.I.P.
Warsaw (AFP) - Looking east to the bloody conflict gripping Ukraine, NATO-member Poland has kicked off an unprecedented military spending spree worth billions to overhaul its forces as Warsaw believes peace in Europe is no longer a given.

Poland kicks off unprecedented military spending spree - Yahoo News
I don't blame them at all for doing this. With Russia testing everyone's air defenses more than ever I think this move is a good one for their safety. Really don't know what Putin has on his mind and I wouldn't take it for granted he wouldn't do anything. I think the rest of Europe should follow suit and not be dependent on the US and NATO for all of their protection. Not that we wouldn't help if it came to that.

Thoughts?
 
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Sim

Registered Member
I don't blame them at all for doing this. With Russia testing everyone's air defenses more than ever I think this move is a good one for their safety. Really don't know what Putin has on his mind and I wouldn't take it for granted he wouldn't do anything. I think the rest of Europe should follow suit and not be dependent on the US and NATO for all of their protection. Not that we wouldn't help if it came to that.

Thoughts?
I agree, and I applaud the Poles for doing that. I have the impression they understand the new severe threat we all are facing due to Russia much better than most other nations.

Other European nations should follow this example. Ideally, I'd like to see a united EU army, maybe not replacing, but complementing national armies. But as long as this idea is not on the table yet, each nation should do what it can.

Unfortunately, German politicians here don't seem to be willing to drastically improve our defense capacities. Sure, they too increase defense spending, but not strongly enough IMO. We're still dependent on protection by the US.

Not that I don't trust the US, but I'd rather see us capable of defending ourselves entirely on our own. Not to place these news forces against the US, but on the contrary, to take this burden from our American allies. After all, it costs American taxpayers a lot, too.

Now Poland is not a major player on military matters, the country has only 40 million citizens and despite all progress made, its economy is still not as strong as the economy of the bigger west European nations. So even when they increase their defense capacities, it will hardly be enough to stop Russia, if things really go wrong one day.

But we all should take the Polish will to defend their freedom, and their spirit to protect their nation as an inspiring example.
 

Hilander

Free Spirit
Staff member
V.I.P.
I agree, and I applaud the Poles for doing that. I have the impression they understand the new severe threat we all are facing due to Russia much better than most other nations.

Other European nations should follow this example. Ideally, I'd like to see a united EU army, maybe not replacing, but complementing national armies. But as long as this idea is not on the table yet, each nation should do what it can.

Unfortunately, German politicians here don't seem to be willing to drastically improve our defense capacities. Sure, they too increase defense spending, but not strongly enough IMO. We're still dependent on protection by the US.

Not that I don't trust the US, but I'd rather see us capable of defending ourselves entirely on our own. Not to place these news forces against the US, but on the contrary, to take this burden from our American allies. After all, it costs American taxpayers a lot, too.

Now Poland is not a major player on military matters, the country has only 40 million citizens and despite all progress made, its economy is still not as strong as the economy of the bigger west European nations. So even when they increase their defense capacities, it will hardly be enough to stop Russia, if things really go wrong one day.

But we all should take the Polish will to defend their freedom, and their spirit to protect their nation as an inspiring example.
What the Poles plan on spending only brings them up to what is required to be a member of NATO, 2% of their GDP. Many European countries don't spend that on their defense but they should for their own benefit. One that I can think of that does right off the top of my head is Estonia, yes little Estonia. Probably France and England but I would have to look to be sure of that.

No Poland probably couldn't hold out long against Russia but they probably could keep them at bay until help did arrive. Who's to say the US won't be so bogged down with other problems if something happened we would be slow to respond or our leaders would be. An attack like that would most likely take place when they thought our backs were turned.

We are spending money on defense we don't have but I feel secure that if China or Russia wanted to take us over they couldn't and wouldn't try because of that. I would like to see our allies in such a place.

Bullies like to pick on the weak especially if they have something they want.
 

Dr4gon

Registered Member
V.I.P.
I was really surprised when I learned how little European countries do for their military. So yeah this is good news for Poland. Russia is probaly one of the most aggressive countries in the whole world so I dont get why so many European countries never do enough to support NATO or their armies. Thats a dangerous move. With Russia and China next door Europe needs to be tons more defensive. I mean even if Putin never interferes with another country that still wouldnt prove that another Russian President wouldnt. Peace is never a given.
 

The_Chameleon

Grandmaster
Well the Netherlands has recently rearmed themselves in a big way, now Poland. I expect this trend to continue with arms makers being the big winners short term. Personally, I think it's overdue. Russia is an unpredictable neighbor and a show of strength in nearby countries is going to go a long way toward humbling their thus far brazen attitude.



- Cham
 

Hilander

Free Spirit
Staff member
V.I.P.
Russia has been spending more than the US in recent years. There for a while after the Soviet Union fell I don't think they were. Saudi Arabia spends the most on their military. Estonia didn't quiet meet the required amount to be a member of NATO but many countries feel way short. The link provided below only covers up to 2013 but up until then the Netherlands or Poland didn't spend much either. Maybe they are waking up considering what is going on in Ukraine.

Military expenditure (% of GDP) | Data | Table
 

Dr4gon

Registered Member
V.I.P.
The amount of arms that can be bought depends on the purchasing power so I did some study about that. This is what I discovered.

2014-2015 MILITARY SPENDING IN US DOLLARS (BILLIONS):
GDP is given according to Purchasing Power (PPP).

US defense spending = $661.808 billion
Total EU defense spending = $409.793 billion.
Russian defense spending - $86.394 billion.
So the US spends more on defense than the whole EU. Also the EU spends more than 4x what Russia spends for defense.

COUNTRY / GDP / % OF GDP / IN US DOLLARS

United States - 17,416 - 3.8 - 661.808
China - 17,632 - 2.1 - 370.272
Germany EU - 13,621 - 1.3 - 177.073
India - 7,277 - 2.4 - 174.648
Russia - 2,057 - 4.2 - 86.394
France EU - 2,587 - 2.2 - 56.914
United Kingdom EU - 2,435 - 2.2 - 53.570
Japan - 4,788 - 1.0 - 47.880
Turkey - 1,512 - 2.3 - 34.776
Italy EU - 2,066 - 1.5 - 30.990
Australia - 1,100 - 1.6 - 17.600
Poland EU - 941 - 1.8 - 16.938
Spain EU - 1,534 - 0.9 - 13.806
Netherlands EU - 798 - 1.2 - 9.576
South Africa - 711 - 1.2 - 8.532
Greece EU - 271 - 2.5 - 6.775
Portugal EU - 285 - 2.1 - 5.985
Romania EU - 403 - 1.3 - 5.239
Sweden EU - 454 - 1.1 - 4.994
Kazakhstan - 395 - 1.2 - 4.740
Belgium EU - 434 - 1.0 - 4.340
Denmark EU - 248 - 1.4 - 3.472
Czech Republic EU - 312 - 1.0 - 3.120
Austria EU - 373 - 0.8 - 2.984
Finland EU - 221 - 1.2 - 2.652
Belarus - 176 - 1.3 - 2.288
Hungary EU - 225 - 0.9 - 2.025
Bulgaria EU - 128 - 1.5 - 1.920
Serbia - 90 - 2.0 - 1.800
Slovakia - 156 - 1.0 - 1.560
Croatia EU - 80 - 1.7 - 1.360
Ireland EU - 235 - 0.5 - 1.175
Estonia EU - 36 - 1.9 - 0.684
Slovenia EU - 62 - 1.1 - 0.682
Lithuania EU - 83 - 0.8 - 0.664
Latvia EU - 51 - 1.0 - 0.510
Cyprus EU - 23 - 2.1 - 0.483
Kyrgyz Republic - 13 - 3.2 - 0.416
Luxembourg EU - 46 - 0.5 - 0.230
Malta EU - 12 - 0.6 - 0.072

LOL! The defense spending for that last country looks more like somebodys checking account!
 

Hilander

Free Spirit
Staff member
V.I.P.
Part of the reason we spend so much is helping other countries build up their military and taking care of our soldiers. Not all of it is spent on weapons although I'm sure a great deal of it is. I have to wonder how much of other countries military spending in on benefits for soldiers or giving military equipment to other countries or if its all for soldiers that are on active duty and military equipment.
 

Sim

Registered Member
Well spending alone doesn't say much about true defensive or offensive capacities. There are many other factors at work, too.

One reason that makes Russia so important is their huge nuclear arsenal, which still makes them world nuclear power #2.

Also, personal costs (for soldiers etc) vary very much from one country to another. When you have draft, especially in an authoritarian country, it drastically minimizes your costs compared to a voluntary army in a free country that has to pay a shitload to even attract enough people to join the army.

Also, there are many relatively cheap kinds of weapons that still are relatively effective, and on the other side, ridiculously expensive "modern" systems which cost a zillion as much, but are not more effective in proportion to their costs.
 

Dr4gon

Registered Member
V.I.P.
Part of the reason we spend so much is helping other countries build up their military and taking care of our soldiers. Not all of it is spent on weapons although I'm sure a great deal of it is. I have to wonder how much of other countries military spending in on benefits for soldiers or giving military equipment to other countries or if its all for soldiers that are on active duty and military equipment.
Conscription is tons cheaper than volunteers. Also with Russias economy the pay is lower than conscript pay would be in the US.

Well spending alone doesn't say much about true defensive or offensive capacities. There are many other factors at work, too.

One reason that makes Russia so important is their huge nuclear arsenal, which still makes them world nuclear power #2.

Also, personal costs (for soldiers etc) vary very much from one country to another. When you have draft, especially in an authoritarian country, it drastically minimizes your costs compared to a voluntary army in a free country that has to pay a shitload to even attract enough people to join the army.

Also, there are many relatively cheap kinds of weapons that still are relatively effective, and on the other side, ridiculously expensive "modern" systems which cost a zillion as much, but are not more effective in proportion to their costs.
Well if nukes are used then it wont matter who wins - nobody will.
But you are totally right about costs. The Russian version of the F-15 costs tons less than the US version and it has all the same perks. And mostly all the military gear in Russia is tons cheaper to build. Its only the imports that are expensive.

Also theres been a lot of issues in the US. The most recent example is the F-35 stealth warplane (looks very similar to the F-117A btw).

“The F-35 is double-inferior,” John Stillion and Harold Scott Perdue concluded in their written summary of the war game, later leaked to the press. The new plane “can’t turn, can’t climb, can’t run,” they warned.
Yet the F-35 is on track to become by far the military’s most numerous warplane. It was designed to replace almost all current fighters in the Air Force and Marine Corps and complement the Navy’s existing F/A-18 jets. The Pentagon plans to acquire roughly 2,400 of the radar-evading F-35s in coming decades, at a cost of more than $400 billion.
Like it or not, the stealthy F-35 is the future of U.S. air power. There are few alternatives.
Pentagon

Now they are scrambling to upgrade the B-52 bombers. Like the Tu-95 the B-52 is still one of the most epic warplanes ever designed - despite its issues with wind on landings.
Imo the F-35 is a huge and hugely expensive Fail.

And dont forget if we had better US-Russia relations all that massive military spending could be used for other more important issues - like nuking IS.
 
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