Moral Crime

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Godfearingsecular, Apr 15, 2007.

  1. If there is no victim should there be a crime? Should the American people be able to create laws based on religious or personal morals?

    This is a debate between the progressive liberal and conservative population of America. It is my personal opinion the majority of progressive liberal secular folks do not believe in good and evil or clear cut right and wrong.

    I was stationed in Germany which has a very progressive secular liberal majority. While there I was a member of a community ice hockey support club... the members were mostly single and we drowned victories and defeats over beer in local clubs. One day one of my German friends says to me and several other friends: last night I sent Mercedes (an 18 yr old with a four month infant out of wedlock) out for some beers (they were shacking for a few days) and I let her daughter give me oral sex. I was shocked as I looked to the other friends for reaction.

    How do you feel about mixing morals with law? Was there a victim? What do you think the reaction of the other ice hockey support club was?

    Likewise, do Blue laws violate the minorities rights considering they are based on morals?
     

  2. ChinUp

    ChinUp ¤ Breathe

    having sexual relations with an infant most assuredly has a victim .. pre teen humans need to be able enjoy sexual immunity until they are of an age where they are able to fully comprehend sexuality .. if children are not afforded this immunity they will not be able to conduct adult relations without falling into unhealthy master servant roles ... a child doesn't have sex with a guardian .. its just too unbalanced .. no equal choice ..

    blue laws are nothing less than religions attempting to administer their flock of followers via the local justice department .. not acceptable .. keep your religion in your own homes & in your churches .. keep it off the streets & out of other peoples lives & court .. Imo .. any attempt to assert that everyone in any particular legal catchment area is loyal to the beliefs of a specific religion is a bid for religous domination & totally unacceptable ..

    Sunday is just Sunday .. if you want to make it out to be a special day .. keep it to yourself & those who also feel its a special day .. don't expect everyone to be like you
     
  3. Excellent answer!


    All American law is based on the morals of the religious majority, America is a Christian nation by simple majority. At the founding of the constitution "common law" was adopted. Common Law in the colonies reflected "old country" norms but more importantly colonies morality based on a very strong religious belief. I think the only restriction the constitution applied was the clause "cruel and unusual punishment" directed towards public bondage in stocks and also the treatment of witches.

    With this in mind the founders agreed that law was to be based on the majority view of morals and belief and was no way secular when viewing law.


    But the majority disagrees with you and the law, all American laws are made by the religious majority.


    France tried this in the period of the founding of the constitution... the period was known as "The Terror"... France restarted the calendar to 0000 and made a ten day week to confuse Christians but the majority overthrew the idea within a decade.
     
  4. ChinUp

    ChinUp ¤ Breathe

    what you call a majority .. is in fact a few speaking for masses .. the people don't know how to shake their loyalty those who say they speak for god & wield the bible that they say is the truth .. its too much like freedom to reject the bible & the church .. secularism is scary for those who have lived under religous rule forever ..

    Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty. ~Thomas Jefferson


    decent education is the only answer .. the more people learn how to use reason the less susceptible they will be to those who capitalize on their propensity for blind loyalty .. get the church out of primary schools just for starters .. make it illigal to indoctrinate young children .. its child abuse IMo .. it robs people of their independence before they even know what it is ..

    In every country and every age, the priest had been hostile to Liberty. ~Thomas Jefferson
     
  5. This is kind of the reason I started this thread to examine how secular view Christian law. All laws in America are based on Christian values and our constitution was purposely set up that way IMHO... The US constitution is very Social Darwinist if you look at the basic document that couldn't get ratified until the Bill of Rights was added. The value of a person was weighed by property and wealth. Even with the Bill of Rights the constitution is unquestionably Social Darwinist.

    The original thirteen colonies saw themselves as countries as in the European Union... Who could vote on federal issues then? In the South the plantation owners, port operators and wealthy powerful business persons. In the North everyone who owned property down to the corner shoe shop could vote federally. Think about the constitution... the state voters could vote for the congressman representing their district and the president but the rich white guys in charge ruled that the people may choose the wrong rich white guy so they designed the Electoral College... The State rich powerful rich white guys selected the Senators leaving the folks out of the play... The president has authority to send the congress packing along with the senators if matters are irresolvable... Conservative Social Darwinism based on a Christian conservative value system that would sort out those who required compassion that failed to meet capitalism head on... compassion was left to the Christians at family, community and church level... Capitalism thrived under this system until the 20th century.

    So why did the North allow more people to vote than the south? The north was more religious... From Canada moving south was the great awakening religious rush at the time... Canada had already sent slaves back to Africa and the religious folks in the NE US demanded the same as time passed.

    My point... the religious folks of the NE and PA were the anti-federalists that demanded the Bill of Rights and the right to vote... Now flash forward to today and religion has disappeared from the NE being replaced by secularism... and, the religion has moved south and west... where high moral standards remain. In the NE child molesters are sometimes not jailed for brutal abuses of children... So, sir if America is based on Christian values and you demand for the people to see full freedom they must be secular what do you base that on?

    The NE and secular areas of Europe I've lived are sad people, caring only about "things" that money can buy... the populations are shrinking along with work ethics as they import immigrants to do distasteful work... Germany and France and soon Great Britain will be Islamic... Germany has been paying citizens to make babies for decades but original German population shrinks because they prefer a larger house and better car than the expense of a second kid... on the other hand the Turks gladly pop out a half dozen kids on the Kindercare welfare. The secular areas demand more government to provide more services... you speak of freedom and see over 50% taxes in Germany to support a dieing country. What freedom do you speak of?
     
  6. ChinUp

    ChinUp ¤ Breathe

    I think you will find that pre-1930's Christian puritanical nonsense carried very little weight on capital hill .. only after the intervention of mass production & the call for dimwitted workforces was religous indoctrination given credibility ..

    & your view on Europe is a shortsighted one .. you confuse blood with culture .. the Islamic culture can not compete with intellectualism & humanitarian ideals .. it doesn't matter what heritage people have .. what matters is the choices they make & nobody will limit their choices knowingly ..
     
  7. breathilizer

    breathilizer Resident Ass-Kisser

    Godfearing, you are clueless about the Constitution. Have you ever read it? It doesn't favor religion very much. In fact, the 10 Commandments are almost all in direct opposition to our Bill of Rights.

    Plus, I don't see how you can call something a Social Darwinist document when Darwin wasn't even born until 22 years after it was written.

    And then you go off saying that from your experience secular societies are sad. What do statistics have to say about that?

    Top 10 happiest nations:

    * 1 Denmark
    * 2 Switzerland
    * 3 Austria
    * 4 Iceland
    * 5 Bahamas
    * 6 Finland
    * 7 Sweden
    * 8 Bhutan
    * 9 Brunei
    * 10 Canada

    It should be noted that Sweden, Switzerland and Denmark are largely populated by atheists. Also, and I could be wrong about this, but I believe Iceland has one of the few atheist Presidents in the world.

    Studies have shown that as a nation gets more secular, education rises, wealth rises, health rises, crime lowers, etc.

    In fact, America is the only first world country to maintain second and third world rates of religiosity.
     

  8. I don't think you have read enough early American history... The first congress authorized the printing of the King James version of the bible... they held church services in congress on Sundays... as Washington DC was built there was one church for every four blocks... MA remained a theocracy for several decades following the ratification of the constitution... I'm secular but I see the reality of history.

    Religious values are reflected in all laws; all laws are created by the religious majority so that seems to not be debatable? Religion was a super majority then and remains a majority now.
    Religion in early America:
    Could you please present this another way, I don't think I understand what you're saying.



    The constitution is neutral towards religion. Go back and read what I said about the constitution as it relates to Social Darwinism and compare it to the below definitions of Conservatism and American Conservatism:

    Also take a look at the actions of the Anti Federalists…
    Anti-Federalist Papers
    http://www.constitution.org/afp/afp.htm



    Social Darwinist is simply a term that doesn't reflect the scientific use... it is used to explain the "pecking order" or the "best of the best" are granted value.


    Perhaps "sad" was an incorrect word... the word best would be apathetic toward nationalism. The people care little for the nation and emphasis is toward "what the nation can do for me." Life is clinical and calculated to satisfy me, today, right now with a little responsibility as possible. There is nothing worth defending for the average citizen... the government is bigger than the people and the people don't see beyond now, they refuse to acknowledge that an outside "people" could take their government and way of life away.


    Yet, America is thriving and much of Europe is dieing...
     
  9. Kazmarov

    Kazmarov For a Free Scotland

    Yeah, I'll ponder that while the Euro spanks the Dollar across the board. The Europeans are secular post-modern societies because World War II was fought in their backyard, and they've accepted that.

    Per capita GDP and poverty rates are the same or better than the US.

    ==

    Moral crime is an oxymoron essientally. Crimes deal with justice, justice is blind, justice is rigid. Morality is a fluid thing that changes from person to person. Some people think the death penalty is just when people eat shrimp because Leviticus says it. However, legally that's completely insane because there's no reason to make it a crime.
     
  10. The weakness of the dollar verses the Euro has much to do with trade deficient and national debt. Yet, the dollar will respond to changes in the stated problem areas change.


    What were you trying to communicate when you clicked these words?


    Where? Poverty rates are lower but as you verify my source check out the unemployment... Also note the negative Population growths... signs of a dieing nation(s).

    The US has the largest and most technologically powerful economy in the world, with a per capita GDP of $43,500. Poverty 12% Population growth rate 0.894% (2007 est.) https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/us.html
    France: Population growth rate 0.588% (2007 est.); GDP per capita $30,100 (2006); population below poverty rate: 6.2% (2004) https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/fr.html
    Germany: Population growth rate -0.033% (2007 est.); GDP per capita $31,400 (2006 est.); No poverty https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/gm.html#Econ






    ==

    Are you saying all valid law is based on reason?
     

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