Man is God

Sim

Registered Member
#21
Hiei,

I'm with you when you say we are responsible for our happiness and no outside force can help us here. Belief in a deity often goes along with denying responsibility for the own actions, or to attach meaning to external events people cannot influence -- "God wanted me to do ...", or "God's ways are unfathomable".

The former is a potentially dangerous lack of sense for responsibility and the projection of internal parts of the own mind on the outside (a usually socially acceptable state of mind bordering on mental illness like schizophrenia, or an LSD trip), the latter is the expression of an individual taking itself way too seriously and important.

Bad things happen, you don't matter and it's nothing personal, get that! And don't tell me God wants you to do this or that -- when the consequences of your actions are bad, you have to take responsibility, and when you failed to think about these consequences before you acted, don't blame anybody but yourself.

Also, it's up to us humans to make a difference, either individually or collectively. Falling on the knees and falling into self-hypnosis by talking to an invisible imaginary being won't accomplish anything -- get your ass up and make a difference! When you waste your time by lulling yourself in some kind of medititation, and thus fail to act, your bad. Don't blame anybody but yourself in that case. There is nobody who will save us, save for ourselves -- if we get our act together. There is no benevolent savior who will save us in the last minute.

And that's not cynicism or pessimism: On the contrary. Once you have understood all that, you can become God of your own life! It's you who can attach meaning to it, by your own creation, and independent of the uncertain mercy of an external being. Listen to yourself carefully and find out what you really love -- art, sports, socializing, meditating, serving, planting, or just watching the beauty of a sunrise. Find out how to control feelings you don't like in yourself. That's the only way to salvation. You can truly be God of your own life, if you just want to.

Hiei, it seems to me that you have taken a huge step, but you refuse to go the last inch. Why replace the irrational, unnecessary idea of an invisible, unproveable God with the irrational, unnecessary idea of a mystic connection between all people, or ghosts?

You don't need them, they just hold you back. Kill them, and you will be free.
 

Tucker

Lion Rampant
#22
You're right. It's all about free will. There isn't some higher plan for all of us.
True, unless this plan involves free will. I find that I have even a choice to believe that my self-indulgence is the supreme point of the universe... or not.

The entirety of human existence, in the long span of time, is very very minute. We're just a tiny little blip on the radar.
And also gods?

To believe that God created us at the beginning of time is literally denying everything that came before us.
Yeah, there's no need to deny Homo erectus and all them. Again, don't confuse stories half-enlightened people have told you with what you might find in your own heart if you look humbly.

We were put on this planet to reproduce, consume, die and be recycled into the earth.
Maybe you were put here to be an intricate worm. That's for you to decide, with your fancy free will. I feel very strongly that I was not given awareness merely to watch myself shovel chow and mount the bathroom throne.

We have merely evolved as a species into something that thinks that it's better than every other living thing on this planet.
I don't think that.

We are not a unique and individual snowflake.
There's only one me, snowflake! How many are there of you?

we are in control.
We're free to roam, to rise or fall, to discover hidden truths or ignore them. Awe-inspiring, ain't it?

It's all just a confusing mess. Not to mention that even within any particular religion as a whole, there are denominations that can believe completely different things.
Hell yes, it's a mess. Humans are messes. I hope you won't give up on spirituality (hate that word!) without first reading the Tao Te Ching.

(81 pages, no mention of gods.) ;)
 

Hiei

The Hierophant
#23
This argument seems logically fallacious. Even if I were to assume that all the existing theories of God are wrong, it doesn't make your theory more plausible. But I'm with you at the part where you believe that man makes his own destiny and that we are in control of our own lives to a large extent.
It makes more sense to me to believe in myself than to believe in a god that has so many other identical/near identical gods.

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Holy books are man-made. Nothing/No one can prove what has been written there.
I'm surprised that you're surprised about the fact that holy books may not be truthful.
You said you don't believe in God now you're "defending" the Holy Books?
You seem to contradict yourself.
Holy books can be a good moral-source [at some point] but that's all. [In my opinion].

I am not defending holy books so much as I'm restating what they've already said. The bible was written by god through man. And if god is infallible, then his books have to be free of error. That's all that I'm saying. I'm not contradicting myself at all.


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I thought Zeitgeist was a piece of crap :lol:
I knew you were going to say something along those lines. And as a human, it's your free will to believe such.

The ancient gods you mentioned have things in common, but to say they are identical is blasphemy ;)
It's only blasphemy if I believe in those gods.

Suppose a new religion would be established today. How do you think its holy places would look? Would they not look like churches, or mosques, or synagogues? Would its ceremonies not resemble the catholic sacraments, the muslim prayer or eastern meditation techniques? And finally, would its teachings not be borrowed from the great thinkers of our time? Those of Jesus, Muhammad, Buddha, Plato, Kant, Nietzsche or Fukuyama?
All that a church, mosque, or any other religious building is, is just a building where certain people of a certain faith gather. It could be someones house, an office building, it could even be an open field. So, I agree that they would all look the same since there's no particular design that needs to be followed.

As far as the teachings go, you could create a religion that believes in a divine ham sammich. That doesn't mean that that ham sammich will tell you to do right things. That ham sammich may even tell you to go out and murder everyone that you see so that they may make the sammich that much bigger. So, no, I don't necessarily think that they'd follow the great thinkers of our time.

In the end religions all borrow down to the praise of one divine energy.. either represented in the form of several dieties or in one supreme Diety.
The question whether to call this energy God or an impersonal, 'random' natural force is the one that drives us either to atheism, agnosticism (doubt) or religion.
I'll agree that most religions all borrow from each other, but then why do people wage holy wars to say that their god is better or more right than another god? If they're all praising the same thing, what does it matter?


=================


Sim,

You have given me much to think about. I deeply value your input to this thread and thanks for the wonderful post.





======================

True, unless this plan involves free will. I find that I have even a choice to believe that my self-indulgence is the supreme point of the universe... or not.
I'll agree to an extent. If the plan is all about free will, that's really just letting things happen as they will. That doesn't seem like much of a plan to me.


And also gods?
Yes, also gods. Without the human mind to create these gods, there are no gods.



Maybe you were put here to be an intricate worm. That's for you to decide, with your fancy free will. I feel very strongly that I was not given awareness merely to watch myself shovel chow and mount the bathroom throne.
And that's the thing. You can do anything that you want to. But in the end, only you can make you do what you want to do.



There's only one me, snowflake! How many are there of you?
I'm sure that there's someone out there who's just like you, just as sure as I am that there's more than one me. I'm not living their life, but I feel that they're making the same decisions that I am and that they're living a very similar life.

We're free to roam, to rise or fall, to discover hidden truths or ignore them. Awe-inspiring, ain't it?
Very much so. And once you fully grasp that, life opens up so many more opportunities. Not that I'm saying that you don't, I'm just saying in general.

Hell yes, it's a mess. Humans are messes. I hope you won't give up on spirituality (hate that word!) without first reading the Tao Te Ching.

(81 pages, no mention of gods.) ;)
I will check it out. I value your input, Tucker and thank you for the time you've put into my thread.
 
#24
There is no such thing as God, however, "God" is proof that the human mind and the collection of human minds together can create anything. If you put your will to it, you can create literally anything. Gods, miracles, acts of immense greatness, or acts of unspeakable evil. It's all the will of man, not God.
- Really? Did we create ourselves? If we are so powerful, why don't we stop ourselves from dying?

Now, for you church going people reading this, let me ask you if you've ever felt the presence of God. If you've ever actually felt the energy that can only be described as God? If you have, has it always been when the people at the gathering were singing, crying, and just otherwise really feeling the moment? Maybe speaking in tongues and dancing all about?
- No, it was at a completely random moment when I was fully awake. To this day I cannot think of any plausible explanation other than God's presence.

We are the exact same decaying, organic material as everything else. We are linked to other people and animals through our soul. Our life spark. The energy that lets us live. We can feel that energy whenever we're near other people. There are groups of people all over the world that will meditate at exactly the same time and those people say that they can feel the overwhelming power of everyone else that's meditating. That's not God. That's people. The more in tune with other people, the more energy you feel. You are your own god. We've all heard the phrase "Where there's a will, there's a way."
- Did we will our own existence? I think not. Are we fully capable of sustaining that existence? I think not.
 

Hiei

The Hierophant
#25
- Really? Did we create ourselves? If we are so powerful, why don't we stop ourselves from dying?
No, we didn't create ourselves. We are here through a series of circumstances that has brought us to be. No different than if you were to take a rock and set it in water until moss grows. If you put that on a much grander scale and make the rock the earth and the water is all the oceans, you can create life. It's not god, it's coincidence.

In a sense we actually are stopping ourselves from dying. Medical science has made huge strides to help that. But death is just as much a part of life as everything else. Nothing is destined to live forever. But we can live on forever through memories. The only way we can become immortal is if we all remember people. Einstein, Hitler, Freud, if you can name a significant person in history, that's them living on forever.

- No, it was at a completely random moment when I was fully awake. To this day I cannot think of any plausible explanation other than God's presence.
Care to add more detail? Were you just randomly walking about your day one day and suddenly you felt a power that you thought was god?

- Did we will our own existence? I think not. Are we fully capable of sustaining that existence? I think not.
I don't think that we've willed our own existence, either. I don't think I understand where you're going with this, though.
 
#26
No, we didn't create ourselves. We are here through a series of circumstances that has brought us to be. No different than if you were to take a rock and set it in water until moss grows. If you put that on a much grander scale and make the rock the earth and the water is all the oceans, you can create life. It's not god, it's coincidence.
I would love for you to take the 8 hour challenge Hybrix posted, then come back to what you posted above.
 
#27
No, we didn't create ourselves. We are here through a series of circumstances that has brought us to be.
- tautology.

No different than if you were to take a rock and set it in water until moss grows.
- that's life from life, not life from non-life. Besides, you still have to explain the ultimate question of how the rock and water (i.e. universe) came into existence in the first place.

If you put that on a much grander scale and make the rock the earth and the water is all the oceans, you can create life. It's not god, it's coincidence.
- You are assuming that. There is no evidence that life came from non-life. There is, however, quite a bit of evidence to the contrary.

In a sense we actually are stopping ourselves from dying. Medical science has made huge strides to help that. But death is just as much a part of life as everything else.
- No it's not, that's a contradictory statement. Death is the end of life. The end of life cannot be a part of life.

Nothing is destined to live forever. But we can live on forever through memories. The only way we can become immortal is if we all remember people. Einstein, Hitler, Freud, if you can name a significant person in history, that's them living on forever.
- No... that's their legacy/story standing the test of time. Einstein is dead. He is not alive.

Care to add more detail? Were you just randomly walking about your day one day and suddenly you felt a power that you thought was god?
- I'd rather not go into much detail. I was watching a movie on my computer and it was paused at the time, and no it wasn't at an emotional time. It was quite random.

I don't think that we've willed our own existence, either. I don't think I understand where you're going with this, though.
- God sustains His own existence. We can't do that, so we obviously aren't God. If there is no God then mankind will probably end sooner or later.
 

Major

4 legs good 2 legs bad
V.I.P.
#28
That's when you feel the power of the earth. I bet that Echoes can agree with me when I say that when you're completely alone in nature, you can feel it. The earth is a living organism just like everything else. When you're alone, you can feel the earth because you're not distracted by everything else that's going on in your life.

I know the feeling that you're talking about, or else I think I do at any rate. I've been sitting out on top of some hill that I've climbed up and just looked out into nothing but rolling mountains. I felt the power of the air, the wind, the rocks around me, the earth surrounding me. It recharges you and lets you know that you can do anything and the earth won't judge you. It embraces you because it's the same thing as us. We are all made up of energy and that's what the earth is, too.
I used to believe that nature controlled everything, that the Earth (actually the entire universe) was a living being, almost like a God, and that everything was connected in some way by nature's energy. I think that's what drew me to hiking and nature. The first time I experienced true wilderness I was awed by the power that I felt. Even though everything was perfectly silent, I could literally HEAR the mountains that surrounded me. The more alone you are, the more you feel it.
 

Hiei

The Hierophant
#29
I would love for you to take the 8 hour challenge Hybrix posted, then come back to what you posted above.
Well I'm game. He said that he's going to send me a book.


============

Close, but no. Us as humans did not create ourselves. I believe that through the evolution of the earth itself, the circumstances have lined up to allow human life. No different than how mold will grow on bread.


- that's life from life, not life from non-life. Besides, you still have to explain the ultimate question of how the rock and water (i.e. universe) came into existence in the first place.
Ok, well I suppose you're right. But if you think about it, God created the entire universe and as short as our lifespan is, and even for as little amount of time that humans have even been around in the long scheme of things, and as expansive and endless as the universe is, do you really believe that God would create one life form in one small corner of the universe and for such a small speck of time? I would find it much easier to believe that god created all the planets and solar systems and galaxies and tended to them more than really any actual life on the stars and planets.

- You are assuming that. There is no evidence that life came from non-life. There is, however, quite a bit of evidence to the contrary.
There is evidence that god created anything? What's your proof and how is it any different than my theory?

- No it's not, that's a contradictory statement. Death is the end of life. The end of life cannot be a part of life.
The end of life is no different than the end of a movie. The ending is just as much a part of the movie as any other part of the movie.

- No... that's their legacy/story standing the test of time. Einstein is dead. He is not alive.
And that is the only way that we can live on, through the memories of everyone else. Our physical bodies are designed to wear out and eventually shut down.

- I'd rather not go into much detail. I was watching a movie on my computer and it was paused at the time, and no it wasn't at an emotional time. It was quite random.
I'll respect that you don't want to go into much detail, but I do find it amusing that you're not willing to share when you felt closest to your god.

- God sustains His own existence. We can't do that, so we obviously aren't God. If there is no God then mankind will probably end sooner or later.
Exactly. I don't know anyone that will say that mankind will live forever. Even if we could, without space exploration, even our earth will die eventually. So if we stay here, we'll die when our planet does. Mankind will die just as well as everything else. You said it yourself. If there is no god, then mankind will probably end sooner or later.


=======================
I used to believe that nature controlled everything, that the Earth (actually the entire universe) was a living being, almost like a God, and that everything was connected in some way by nature's energy. I think that's what drew me to hiking and nature. The first time I experienced true wilderness I was awed by the power that I felt. Even though everything was perfectly silent, I could literally HEAR the mountains that surrounded me. The more alone you are, the more you feel it.
Exactly. The earth is such a powerful force that it's insane to say that it isn't. All you have to do to experience it is go to it.
 
#30
Ok, well I suppose you're right. But if you think about it, God created the entire universe
- Woah, what? I thought you were of the opinion that God is a creation of the human mind.

and as short as our lifespan is, and even for as little amount of time that humans have even been around in the long scheme of things, and as expansive and endless as the universe is, do you really believe that God would create one life form in one small corner of the universe and for such a small speck of time?
- First of all, you are assuming an old earth. The Bible teaches otherwise. Second, the enormous size of the universe only testifies to the greatness of God, it says nothing about His plans.

I would find it much easier to believe that god created all the planets and solar systems and galaxies and tended to them more than really any actual life on the stars and planets.
- Really? You think God would rather spend time with inanimate planets and stars than with conscious beings? Your God sounds so loving...

There is evidence that god created anything? What's your proof and how is it any different than my theory?
- I have no proof. Only evidence.

The end of life is no different than the end of a movie. The ending is just as much a part of the movie as any other part of the movie.
- Ahh, see now you are being equivocal. In your analogy, you refer to the end of the movie, i.e. the last few minutes/seconds of the movie. However, the last few minutes of a man's life is not death. Death is that moment in which life no longer exists. Therefore, it is logically impossible for death to be a part of life, just like the car ride home from the theater is not a part of the movie.

And that is the only way that we can live on.
- Ok, well, you are writing metaphorically. I am writing literally. join the party.

I'll respect that you don't want to go into much detail, but I do find it amusing that you're not willing to share when you felt closest to your god.
- The fact that I chose to maintain my privacy is amusing to you??? I find that a little offensive.

Exactly. I don't know anyone that will say that mankind will live forever. Even if we could, without space exploration, even our earth will die eventually. So if we stay here, we'll die when our planet does. Mankind will die just as well as everything else. You said it yourself. If there is no god, then mankind will probably end sooner or later.
- I believe mankind will live forever... just not in this state of existence.
 
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