Leadership of men

Discussion in 'Politics & Law' started by Godfearingsecular, May 28, 2007.

  1. This is a question for you video game players and want a be leaders of soldiers to determine if you can make correct answer when dealing with subordinate soldiers… You must maintain respect for the system of leadership…

    Military leadership is much different than civil leadership… in the military you are in total control of the leadership 24-7 throughout the contract… for those never having been exposed to military duty situation you may find this a little hard to grasp. What happens exactly when a soldiers refuses to follow orders? In civilian life the person simply is fired... The below is based on a true situation and I was in the leadership position…

    Task: Supervise a soldier with a negative attitude, the soldier is an Army draftee and has violated Army policy resulting in a dishonorable discharge… The soldier is a black inner city street smart soldier that has used his street abilities to take advantage of the military in a time of war to result in his early exit from possibility of combat… qualified in Army communications but has violated military regulations resulting in his discharge.

    Condition: You are a white buck sergeant stationed in South Korea, the year is 1972 and the Vietnam War is still going strong… The Command Sergeant’s Major has called you to his office in the Battalion Headquarters… You are holding the position of the Detachment Sergeant for the Battalion Headquarters… this is a position equal to First Sergeant in a full sized unit… yet, you are a junior leader with less than two years in the Army… The CSM has the soldier sitting in his office and directs: This soldier has been Courts Marshaled and busted to private and is here awaiting orders for flight back to the US where he will dishonorably discharged… Your mission is to provide him security, food and shelter as he awaits his orders and then provide him transportation to Seoul for the flight… As you stand to take custody of the soldier the CSM states: The soldier is still a soldier and even though he has been reduced in rank to the lowest pay grade he still must earn his compensation as he awaits orders.

    Standard: Issue fair treatment for the soldier…

    What would you do as you departed the CSM’s office on your babysitting mission? What message would you have for this soldier? Keep in mind your best friend was killed three months ago in Vietnam and your best friend from high school had his left leg blown off the day you got your draft notice… This soldier is smarter than them and has served only a couple months past training and deliberately got caught using drugs to get discharged…

    Here is what I did… I offered the soldier an option of easy or hard treatment… I assigned him easy tasks to keep him busy… but he chose hard… the easy duty was painting the baseboard of my soldiers recreation room area… I provided the soldier a paint brush, gallon of black paint, cardboard to cover the floor and cleanup solvent… I explained the tasks and my expectations… two hours later I checked in on the soldier to see his progress… I found him asleep on the pool table with the paint brush dripping onto the felt… large X’s, maybe 2 feet high were constant around the wall without a drop on the baseboard…

    The question for debate is what would you call hard duty for this soldier? Orders for his flight will be in hand within three to four days…

  2. ChinUp

    ChinUp ¤ Breathe

    reminds me of this quote ..

    When the common soldiers are too strong and their officers too weak, the result is INSUBORDINATION. When the officers are too strong and the common soldiers too weak, the result is COLLAPSE. When the higher officers are angry and insubordinate, and on meeting the enemy give battle on their own account from a feeling of resentment, before the commander-in-chief can tell whether or no he is in a position to fight, the result is RUIN. - Sun Tzu

    The bag of rice is good one .. get a bag of rice & throw the rice onto a grassy area .. & have your babycakes pick up all the rice with his fingers .. every single grain .. no help, or tools, or contact with others .. big bag of rice .. discipline & emotional closing requires quiet of mind .. anything that will make babycakes have to stop & concentrate for hours on end should do the trick .. Imo

    Keeps him busy .. out of harms way & able to do some long hard thinking .. plus he isn't actually serving any purpose for the military, so he wont feel like he is helping the force he now hates .. just dealing with a shitty mindless job .. just what he feels like the whole thing has been anyway iMo ..
  3. I quietly asked the other soldiers to leave the rec-room and then I picked up a pool que stick and tried to hit a homerun with one of his size 11 combat boots and then jumped into his face begging to be assaulted... almost worked... then he realized what I was up to and smiled knowing he would be home free in a few days... and then I.................
  4. ChinUp

    ChinUp ¤ Breathe

    :no: .. that is the behaviour of a subordinate .. you behaved like you were intimidated by him .. lost any authority you might have had .. Imo .. you cannot show a child how to grow mature by acting like a child ..
  5. The soldier had already been courts marshaled... he was street smart and knew he could do almost anything short of a chargable offense under the UCMJ... My intention in striking him on the foot was to cause him to become angry enough to strike me... had he done so I would see his butt in jail for years... destroying my men's rec-room was a very bad choice on his part... we suddenly understood each other exactly... I could do nothing against him short of a fellony UCMJ charge... likewise, I could treat him like an animal he had chosen to be... I offered him an easy path... paint a while and play pool... no! he had to show me that I had no, nada, zilch control over him and that he would do exactly as he cared to... He was wrong!

    I had him escorted to his lunch meal without further exchange of words... upon his return to my orderly room I loaned him my steel pot, entrenching tool and water canteen... dig 50 minutes and drink warm water for 10 minutes 12 hours a day... for the near future he would dig a three by three foot times 50 feet ditch for my rose bushes... On day three he had made little progress on the ditch but had spent hours sweating in the hot sun... only seven or eight feet dug... I gave him stacks of computer printouts and told him to bury them ... that I read it helps roses grow... the next day he asked about his orders... I told him I gave them to him yesterday... damn it had rained all night... the stupid private had burried them with my compost... I told him he would finish the full 50 feet of ditch before he sat his skinny butt in a freedom bird... He finished it just as his new set of orders came in four days later... I would have preferred to see his butt in jail for screwing up my rec-room and then smiling at me as if I could do nothing about it... We both learned something about who was in charge...

    This is the official army leaders guide and it has changed little since I was active... https://atiam.train.army.mil/soldierPortal/atia/adlsc/view/public/9502-1/fm/22-100/toc.htm
    There are many ways to lead men but few ways to lead the soldier I spoke about above without disrespecting those other subordinates in your charge looking on...

    Anyone interested in a military job should read the above reference to see where the leaders are coming from...
  6. ChinUp

    ChinUp ¤ Breathe

    is this supposed to get me to think he deserves to be treated like an animal ? .. because it sure as shit sounds like it ..

    willful entrapment .. you would have deserved to be locked up, for misusing your position & deserved a beating for being such a fucking dick .. what that man needed was discipline & direction .. not an officer that was even more childlike that he was .. it is because of just this kind of stupidity that decent exists in the ranks .. unless the officer demands respect due to being more able to deal with stress in an intelligent manner (ie having more real authority) .. the men beneath him will have nothing but contempt for his & all officers authority ..

    that rec room isn't worth one hair on a soldiers head .. you have serious issues with respect .. making it impossible for you to command respect .. first you have to know what it is ..

    he understood that he was dealing with a total A-hole who cares more about brick walls than soldiers ..

    Bull .. you were in a position of authority & thus perfectly capable of setting him a better task .. a task that was not a service to the military, or you, but to his need to learn discipline .. your lack of perspective on this mans situation, is disgusting .. torturing people is supposed to be what the enemy does to soldiers .. not the officers .. no wonder this guy wanted out so bad .. he was surrounded by dick heads ..

    you behaved like an animal .. he behaved like an insubordinate foot soldier ..

    you have control issues .. not him .. the fact that you got all ego ego ego is proof of this .. zero authority all pissing contest ..

    in short you tortured a soldier .. this is the kind of thing that gets the officer shot in the back as soon as your in combat .. if you think a few stripes gives you authority you are mistaken .. authority is a skill you learn .. its not handed to you ..

    You told him to do this .. & you call him the stupid one .. even though he had the sense to ask you about it becouse it was obviously not a good idea .. but still your head is so swollen that you cant see the wood for the trees & add to the nails in your coffin .. by handing him the responsibility for your fuckup ..

    you removed any doubt in his mind that leaving the forces was the right thing to do .. well done for destroying another mans faith in the armed forces ..

    you are the one who deserved to be locked up like an animal & have any authority stripped from you .. by my reckoning ..

    he was the one who kept the high ground .. you showed him who was boss alright ..

    you make the military look like a prison camp .. honour has obviously left the ranks .. no wonder we are faced with the mess thats going on currently with the armed forces ..

    When the common soldiers are too strong and their officers too weak, the result is INSUBORDINATION. When the officers are too strong and the common soldiers too weak, the result is COLLAPSE. When the higher officers are angry and insubordinate, and on meeting the enemy give battle on their own account from a feeling of resentment, before the commander-in-chief can tell whether or no he is in a position to fight, the result is RUIN. - Sun Tzu

    Learn .. its over five thousand years old & still better than present policy .. what does that tell you about your force ? You must earn the respect of your men .. & bullying (intimidation & force) them is not going to earn you respect .. it will earn you contempt .. & that will get you killed by the hands of your own men ..
  7. Irishone21

    Irishone21 Registered Member

    Well, if he really desired to be discharged, I would have a sincere talk with him prior to giving him work... If his position stands, I would try to help him leave, for no one should have to be completely subservient to man. If in fact I had to give him work, I would give him something he couldn't mess up. However, if the situation went down as you told it, I would express to him in solemnity how shameful this act was, and following that, I would leave. I would relay the message that this person does not deserve to be a soldier, thus allowing him to go home.
  8. Here is the deal… the soldier had been courts marshaled for possession of drugs… exactly enough drugs to be courts marshaled yet not enough to be jailed… enough drugs to void his top secret clearance for his job… his job was a communications specialist… commonly known as a Rat Rig operator… We had three companies spread out across Korea and the only reliable communications between these units and higher command was through the Rat rigs… The soldier was drafted for 24 months… two months in basic training… The training for a rat rig takes over ten months… maybe $200,000.00 and the background search for top secret $15,000.00… He was transferred to Korea and was not being shot at and would complete his 24 months service in Korea had he only sat in his air conditioned Rat Rig and passed classified information to those who depended on him…

    Bull fucking shit! When a soldier gets courts marshaled in an outlying unit and the judgment is made to dishonorably discharge the soldier by the CM ruling then the soldier is transferred to the headquarters to await travel orders for port call… The soldier is in a transit mode only five days and an ocean separate him form being under military control and being a civilian… Here is the deal… if one of my Detachment subordinates had did what he did to the recreation room they would be charged with non judicial punishment, fined, possibly be reduced in rank and restricted to the barracks… but because this soldier was in transit status he could not be charged for such punishment since he had already had a serious charge completed against him by the CM… The only control I or any other leader has on a soldier that has been Courts Marshaled is another Courts Marshal, a Court Marshal for a crime more serious than the one he had been found guilty for… For that reason I provoked him to assault me so I could punish him for his wrongful action of insubordination. You see… it was me that was entrapped by this street smart soldier with a ticket to abuse the system short of committing a felony under the UCMJ. I removed the unit soldiers from the room… stuck the puke on the foot with the pool stick hoping he would assault me… had he assaulted me the unit subordinates would witness that they did not see me hit the soldier but entered to see him assault me… I would witness that I smacked the side of the pool table to wake him up and he hit me… he would go to jail for a long time…

    He understood that he had outsmarted the American tax payers… didn’t run off to Canada to avoid the draft but let the government invest a lot of money in him… he clearly knew I could not “make him earn his private pay” as the CSM had ordered I do… he was testing me to see if I would let him sleep or I would demand he earn his pay over the days pending his freedom bird ride… My soldiers would have laughed out loud at me had I allowed him to go sleep for 72 hours for being insubordinate and damaging the recreation room.

    So if you were the responsible leader of men you would have done what? Perhaps you would admonish him for damaging the recreation room and then ordered him to go sleep until he was given orders? How would the other soldiers you supervise take his special treatment?

    What were his and my options... his was to do nothing... mine were to have him do something... If the only actions he could do were negative actions then logic would demand that he should be required to do nothing but exist until his departure... how would you meet the requirements of the CSM who stated the soldier must earn his pay for those "transit days?"

    In 1972 the US had a military draft and citizens like you, me and the soldier in question had a choices of saying I'm gay or running off to Canada to avoid the draft... The US government didn't invite you to be a popup target for America but demanded it of you... If I could have got away with it I would have broken both of this soldiers legs for what he had did but all I could manage was making him uncomfortable for a few days... Think... just a couple thousand miles to the south soldiers like him were dieing at the rate of over 100 a day in Vietnam... soldiers drafted like us to do 24 months duty for America. By using the methods to be Courts Marshaled he used and then doing his followup in my recreation room he proved himself to be less than a man... an animal deserving being placed in a cage... This soldier as a person was the scum of the earth and deserving of no human respect.
  9. ChinUp

    ChinUp ¤ Breathe

    duty .. is an honourable enterprise .. it is a solemn realm of respect & service ... your contempt for the wellbeing of your own people & servicemen is in contradiction to duty or respect .. it is the behaviour of an indisciplined child .. to be honest .. I wonder if you even understand what liberty is .. what compassion & love are .. & how important they are to the proper administration of armed soldiers ..

    The extent of your consciousness is limited only by your ability to love & to embrace with your love the space around you, & all it contains. ~Napoleon Bonaparte

    To lead men you have to care about them .. there is no avoiding this uncomfortable reality .. without being able to see though their eyes .. you are impotent .. totally incapable of training them, leading them or developing there personal aptitudes ..

    Bullies (intimidation & force) don't a leader make .. leaders need to know the value of kindness .. for truly all follow whoever is the kindest to them .. it is the very nature of human behavior .. I suggest you get a grip on your anger before you issue orders ..

    "The healthy man does not torture others - generally it is the tortured who turn into torturers.” Carl Gustav Jung

    there is nothing whoosie or wimpish about giving a shit .. its what divides the men from the boys .. or have you never held a child in your arms & realized this ?
  10. What would you have done?

    Go back to the first post and read the task, condition and standard...

    The concemned soldier was ordered to earn his compensation for his remaining time in service... he refussed and refussed with contempt... what would you have done?

    I had Korean soldiers in my unit... we had an inspection and in preparation for the inspection I found that several of the private Korean MP's had taken some paint from the military supply they were guarding to paint names and ranks on their duffel bags... I reported the incident to their first sergeant...

    He lined them up at attention and jumped into the air for the tall ones as he bloodied their mouths... he put them on their knees on a concrete floor for two hours... I asked him to ease up and he told me soldiers need to understand leadership and take responsibility for their actions... I agreed.

    What action would you take on the soldier placed in your care... how would you meet the CSM's requirement that the soldier earn his compensation?

    Your bleeding heart clouds your common sense... please do explain...

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