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Kid Rock’s use of Confederate flag sparks NAACP boycott

qweerblue

Registered Member
I agree with you, QB. The issue was state's rights, but the right the states wanted to implement was to continue slavery. And instead of trying to work things out once Lincoln was elected the South began to secede.

The thing is I think there may have been a better way to handle the issue rather than declaring war on our fellow citizens, who technically I feel were correct in that the federal government had no authority to abolish slavery.
Yeah--I was reading about some of the proposals to avoid war, such as the Federal government, in essence, "buying" the slaves from their owners so that the South wouldn't suffer such a huge economic crash were slavery to end. Of course, it would have cost billions, and so, was never seriously considered. And there was the Crittenden Compromise, which I think forbade slavery in those areas maintained by territorial government but also protected it in those states where it already existed. I think it also allowed for each state, whether north or south, once they had enough population to join the Union, to decide the slavery question for themselves. And it stated outright that Congress could not abolish slavery where it existed. It was rejected by both the House and the Senate.

Secession preceded the actual declaration of war though, right? And didn't the Confederates attack Fort Sumter a few weeks before Lincoln actually declared war? That's not to say that the Union was not preparing for war--I assume it was. And, as I have said, the South definitely felt threatened, and rightly so--it is clear that their entire economic structure was under threat, and there was the very valid question of whether or not the Federal government had the authority to end slavery.

I really do wonder how secession and or war could have been avoided... Even though I have been trained not to play the "what if" game, I cannot help but wonder what if the Union had allowed secession, or what if Lincoln had not presented himself as hostile to the institution of slavery...? I mean, would we still have slaves? Or, would we be a collection of tiny, independent nations, as in other parts of the world?

Pretty fascinating to ponder.

And it's not like Lincoln didn't harbor racist beliefs himself--it's pretty easy to find evidence of his own racist beliefs, like this 1858 speech:

“I will say, then, that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races—that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this, that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I, as much as any other man, am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.”

Also, I remember when I found out that the Emancipation Proclamation only freed slaves in the Confederate States, not those in the Union or border states. It was more a war tactic than it was any kind of movement to free all slaves en masse, but that fact seems to have gotten lost with the passage of time...
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@ QB: Sorry to you & Jeanie for the accusation of projection, it wasn't my intent but that's how it came out.

What I'm complaining about is the use of the charge of racism as a default, to silence the opposition, to smear, to draw attention to ones-self or their cause.

There is real racism such as you have described. A lot of racism. I don't deny that and it is a real challenge, yet we have made much progress. Unfortunately, there are so many out there that seem to cheapen the reality of the problem by calling racism at every opportunity. People like this protester and the likes of Jackson & Sharpton who make a career of race. I think they do an injustice to improving the situation by their use of the charge of racism, for their personal benefit.

As you documented quite well above, there is a real issue with race and much still remains to be done. But these types of things like protesting an honor given to a local musician aren't helpful.
Thank goodness, SS, that we can agree on something! Honestly, I really hate confrontation and disagreement, despite my willingness to throw my hat in the ring. I get kind of dizzy and nauseous, and I'm home all alone, with no one to bring me Canada Dry and saltines ;)

But, yes--I really do see your point. Many use racism as a weapon to gouge away with at the "other side", and I do not support that at all, because, as you said, it cheapens the reality of the problem. One example I will use is the Tea Party--I have friends who are members of the Tea Party who are nothing close to being racist; it really disturbs me that an entire movement has been branded as racist, as if there are not valid reasons to oppose the Obama Administration. I *do* believe there are racist Tea Party members, just as there are racist Democrats and Republicans and Libertarians, etc. But once the whole Tea Party movement got painted with the same, broad brushstrokes, it squelched real conversation and debate, which I think is not only deeply lamentable but also harms our country and smothers our progress.
 
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Dekzper

Registered Member
I totally agree with SmilinSilhouette. The more people focus on racism, the longer we'll have to deal with it. I live in a place in the U.S. (in the south) where I dont even have to think about racism. My friends are Chinese, black, Vietnamese, white, Indian, Eastern Indian, etc. We dont talk about racism either. We talk about bands, glowsticking, skateboards, homework, dates, etc. And there are Confederate flags here too. But I've never heard anyone call somebody else a racist name.
QB, if you traveled more, you'd def meet people who have Confederate flags and are def not racist. They do exist and some of them live in my town.

My decision is that the boycotters do not have a valid excuse to protest.
 

SmilinSilhouette

Registered Member
@ QB: Hahaha, I knew that Jeanie, you, and I agree about this issue. I abhor racism and prejudice and it really pisses me off when it is just thrown around to see if it will stick. It doesn't really help that those of us on the right are constantly bombarded with these allegations out-of-hand. You and I actually agree on a good number of things but I think it helps us both to solidify our opinions through debate. You always challenge me to think about my positions and I really appreciate that.

@ Dekz: That is exactly how I see things as well. I don't think about my friends as their race, gender, preference, religion, etc. I think of them as people. So I feel the same way about people I don't know. Prejudice (prejudging people) is a building block of both racism and the use of the charge of racism to silence opposition.
 

qweerblue

Registered Member
I totally agree with SmilinSilhouette. The more people focus on racism, the longer we'll have to deal with it. I live in a place in the U.S. (in the south) where I dont even have to think about racism. My friends are Chinese, black, Vietnamese, white, Indian, Eastern Indian, etc. We dont talk about racism either. We talk about bands, glowsticking, skateboards, homework, dates, etc. And there are Confederate flags here too. But I've never heard anyone call somebody else a racist name.
QB, if you traveled more, you'd def meet people who have Confederate flags and are def not racist. They do exist and some of them live in my town.

My decision is that the boycotters do not have a valid excuse to protest.

Gotta disagree with some of what you say here, Dekzper. The fact that racism exists is the problem--focusing on it is *not* the problem. That's like saying focusing on cancer is the problem, and that cancer, in and of itself, is not problematic. Focusing on racism and challenging it is not the reason it exists and will not make us "have to deal with it longer". Ignoring it and denying that it exists is at least as harmful, if not more, as the false claims made by some about racism. Racism is a fact. I'm not sure where this mecca in the South is where you and your multicultural assortment of friends are untouched by racism, but it is not the norm.

As far as my needing to travel more, that's something I would definitely like to do, though I have been all over Michigan, Texas, Tennessee, Kentucky, Florida, Georgia, and Maine, and I have visited Portland (Oregon), San Diego, and Chicago. I've also been to several Mexican border towns and have visited Toronto several times. So, you know, I've been around. I've come face-to-face with racism, sometimes by people sporting the Confederate Flag, but mostly not. But EVERY person I have ever encountered who embraces that flag has displayed deeply racist behavior. As I have said, I will not argue that everyone who flies the Confederate Flag is racist, as that is an impossible argument to make, but based on my own real-world experiences coupled with the copious reading I have done and visits to various sites on the internet, the Confederate Flag is definitely embraced by many who harbor a deep and abiding hatred of Black people.

As far as your decision that the protesters lack a valid excuse for their actions, that's a subjective question and you are obviously entitled to your opinion. I also want to point out that objecting to Kid Rock's display of the Confederate Flag does not necessarily lead to the conclusion that he is racist--it only implies that some people believe that because of what the Confederate Flag reflected, historically, it is in poor taste for Kid Rock to fly it. For an organization focused on lifting up those most harmed and oppressed by the legacy of slavery, Jim Crow, and racism, rejecting to the use of the Confederate Flag by a potential honoree makes perfect sense.

I'd be really interested to know what those of you who argue that focusing on racism is the problem suggest can be done to actually eradicate racism. We're not supposed to focus on it or talk about it, we're supposed to ignore the fact that people of color continue to face intense discrimination in matters such as education, housing, employment, and public services, yet we're supposed to howl every time some White person claims discrimination by a person of color. Racism of any kind is wrong, yet does anyone here really believe that Whites are discriminated against just as much as are people of color? Do people really believe that a White persona and a person of color born into the US face the same obstacles and are offered the same opportunities? I am willing to talk about false claims of racism made by people of color and how detrimental that is to cultural cohesiveness, but not without looking at the entire picture. People do not like these conversations, as they make them uncomfortable and defensive, but I will not shy away from pointing out that the US remains deeply and tragically divided by race and that it isn't talking about it that's the problem--it's denying racism's existence and pretending that all things are equal that is shamefully, woefully ineffective for truly fostering unity across all races.
 

Dekzper

Registered Member
Also, I remember when I found out that the Emancipation Proclamation only freed slaves in the Confederate States, not those in the Union or border states.
Which means that the Confederate states were the first place where slavery was abolished. Which means that the Union states weren't willing to abolish slavery then. Which means that the Union flag represents bigotry more than the Confederate flag.
Which means that the bigots are using the wrong flag. But the Union flag doesn't represent bigotry now so bigots dont really even have a flag.

I'm not sure where this mecca in the South is where you and your multicultural assortment of friends are untouched by racism, but it is not the norm.
I was def sorry to hear about that. Me and my friends are prolly over sheltered and will find out more about that later. I just wish those people would wake up and realize that we're all human.

For an organization focused on lifting up those most harmed and oppressed by the legacy of slavery, Jim Crow, and racism, rejecting to the use of the Confederate Flag by a potential honoree makes perfect sense.
I am very opposed to racism but I have to disagree. It just gives validity to the idea that the Confederate flag still represents bigotry. I think having the Confederate flag there would be a great way to prove that it doesn't mean bigotry anymore. It would also help deny bigots the right to use that flag to support their ignorant behavior.
Okay, a little off-topic but this thread reminds me of one of the best signatures I ever saw:
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then there will be peace." -Jimi Hendrix
 

qweerblue

Registered Member
@ QB: Hahaha, I knew that Jeanie, you, and I agree about this issue. I abhor racism and prejudice and it really pisses me off when it is just thrown around to see if it will stick. It doesn't really help that those of us on the right are constantly bombarded with these allegations out-of-hand. You and I actually agree on a good number of things but I think it helps us both to solidify our opinions through debate. You always challenge me to think about my positions and I really appreciate that.
I agree with you again, SS--I do understand that sometimes, the allegation of racism is thrown out just to silence opposition and to "see if it will stick." It gets used as a weapon to discredit others, and I am vehemently opposed to such behavior.

I also really feel for you, because I agree that the accusation of racism seems most often to be directed at those who lean to the right, though, from my own personal experience, I could not confidently say that I have seen more racism from my right-leaning friends than from my left-leaning ones. If we treat the right as a monolith, I think the argument could be made that racism seems more pervasive, in general, on the right, but that's still not an argument I feel very comfortable making. I see racism everywhere, across political affiliations and across class, sex, gender, and race.

I'll admit though, that while I think there are valid criticisms to be made of the NAACP, I still see a need for an organization that is focused on overcoming the oppression faced by people of color. Yes, it is problematic that if an organization called the Advancement for White People existed, it most surely would be the target of intense criticism, but... Here's the thing: It's been barely 50 years since we ended sanctioned discrimination of people of color. That means we still share out country with people who were not allowed to attend most colleges and universities, who were barred from living in certain areas, who were denied employment merely for the color of their skin, who were denied public services and accommodations, and who were subject to a level of verbal and physical violence that is utterly breathtaking. People our age and younger have parents and grandparents who were not allowed to be full members of our society and country, and that legacy has most surely affected their position in society today.

If I'm being honest, though, I would likely be more supportive of programs, services, policies, and organizations that work to bring opportunity to all poor people instead of focusing on just people of color. Poor people, in general, regardless of the color of their skin, face obstacles and barriers to success and to fully participating in civic society. Their opportunities for economic success are severely restricted and limited, and that, honestly, is my passion--figuring out a way to make access to resources and opportunities more equitable for *everyone*. Still, having said that, I do believe that to be poor *and* a person of color is more limiting than being a poor White person, in general.

It's definitely a ridiculously complex subject, and I do appreciate your pushing me to question and challenge my own ideas and beliefs, because my goal is to remain open-minded enough that I don't ignore or neglect any truth.
 

MAgnum9987

Do What Thou Wilt
I would just like to interject that republican northerners were also enacting tariffs on imported goods against the south's will, forcing them to buy northern goods. I was taught that would impact the south more than abolishing slavery would, so they Seceded.
 

CaptainObvious

Embrace the Suck
V.I.P.
I agree with you again, SS--I do understand that sometimes, the allegation of racism is thrown out just to silence opposition and to "see if it will stick." It gets used as a weapon to discredit others, and I am vehemently opposed to such behavior.

I also really feel for you, because I agree that the accusation of racism seems most often to be directed at those who lean to the right, though, from my own personal experience, I could not confidently say that I have seen more racism from my right-leaning friends than from my left-leaning ones. If we treat the right as a monolith, I think the argument could be made that racism seems more pervasive, in general, on the right, but that's still not an argument I feel very comfortable making. I see racism everywhere, across political affiliations and across class, sex, gender, and race.

I'll admit though, that while I think there are valid criticisms to be made of the NAACP, I still see a need for an organization that is focused on overcoming the oppression faced by people of color. Yes, it is problematic that if an organization called the Advancement for White People existed, it most surely would be the target of intense criticism, but... Here's the thing: It's been barely 50 years since we ended sanctioned discrimination of people of color. That means we still share out country with people who were not allowed to attend most colleges and universities, who were barred from living in certain areas, who were denied employment merely for the color of their skin, who were denied public services and accommodations, and who were subject to a level of verbal and physical violence that is utterly breathtaking. People our age and younger have parents and grandparents who were not allowed to be full members of our society and country, and that legacy has most surely affected their position in society today.

If I'm being honest, though, I would likely be more supportive of programs, services, policies, and organizations that work to bring opportunity to all poor people instead of focusing on just people of color. Poor people, in general, regardless of the color of their skin, face obstacles and barriers to success and to fully participating in civic society. Their opportunities for economic success are severely restricted and limited, and that, honestly, is my passion--figuring out a way to make access to resources and opportunities more equitable for *everyone*. Still, having said that, I do believe that to be poor *and* a person of color is more limiting than being a poor White person, in general.

It's definitely a ridiculously complex subject, and I do appreciate your pushing me to question and challenge my own ideas and beliefs, because my goal is to remain open-minded enough that I don't ignore or neglect any truth.
You need to get to 500 posts so I can rep you for this.

Let me say I have been very critical of the NAACP, Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, MALDEF, LULAC, La Raza Unida Party, etc...for engaging in behavior that to me exacerbates the racial divide in this country instead of helping it. It bothers me to no end that people like Justice Clarence Thomas has been subjected to some of the most vile and cruel comments BY BLACK PEOPLE as well as white simply because of his political stance. If he were on the left the aforementioned people and groups would be calling for heads.

That being said, I agree these groups still have relevance and significance. My parents remember going to Mexican schools and not allowed in White schools prior to Brown v. Board. My grandmother would always talk about having to pay the poll tax to vote. A friend of mine has some reciepts framed his dad kept when he payed the poll tax in order to vote. It's true, we are not that far away from the 1964 Civil Rights Act, and there is still some opposition to what it guarantees.
 

qweerblue

Registered Member
You need to get to 500 posts so I can rep you for this.

Let me say I have been very critical of the NAACP, Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, MALDEF, LULAC, La Raza Unida Party, etc...for engaging in behavior that to me exacerbates the racial divide in this country instead of helping it. It bothers me to no end that people like Justice Clarence Thomas has been subjected to some of the most vile and cruel comments BY BLACK PEOPLE as well as white simply because of his political stance. If he were on the left the aforementioned people and groups would be calling for heads.

That being said, I agree these groups still have relevance and significance. My parents remember going to Mexican schools and not allowed in White schools prior to Brown v. Board. My grandmother would always talk about having to pay the poll tax to vote. A friend of mine has some reciepts framed his dad kept when he payed the poll tax in order to vote. It's true, we are not that far away from the 1964 Civil Rights Act, and there is still some opposition to what it guarantees.

Cap, thank you SO much for this. I cannot even tell you what it means to me. I'm crazy busy, trying to get my girl ready for a trip to DC for a conference and taking care of some other business, but I didn't want to wait any longer to acknowledge your kind words to me and your willingness to share your knowledge and personal experience with the legacy of racism. *This*, I think, is where hard conversations can somehow lead to understanding and to finding a new path toward remedying some of what keeps us so unequal in the US. I often think these kinds of conversations are more powerful than any policy or program could ever be--when we can all just put it out there and acknowledge the wrong turns of both the past and present and come to some common understanding of how to move forward into that bright, shining future :D

So, thank you, again--I shall now think of you as Captain Awesome.
 

Wade8813

Registered Member
I'm not a big fan of the NAACP - to be honest, I'm almost pleasantly surprised when they come out on a controversial topic and I agree with them completely.

That said, here I agree with them. I'll admit, I'm as much a Northerner as anyone. I've lived in Seattle my whole life. IMO, there is a strong enough connotation of racism associated with the flag that it really just seems like a bad idea to hang onto it so fiercely.
 
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