Islamic Scholar Condemns Terrorism

PretzelCorps

Registered Member
#1
This took some serious guts:

The Islamic scholar who issued a powerful fatwa, or religious ruling, against terrorism and suicide bombers said Thursday that he was not afraid of reprisals from his enemies and did not fear for his life.

"I am not afraid of any human being on the surface of Earth," Sheikh Muhammad Tahir ul-Qadri told CNN's Christiane Amanpour.

"I am working ... to bridge up the Muslim world and the Western world, to remove the hatreds, to remove all misunderstandings."

"So this is a good cause. I am not afraid of anybody. It depends upon whatever my Lord wants. If I have to live, I will live. Otherwise, I am not afraid."

Ul-Qadri was speaking to CNN just over a week after he issued a 600-page fatwa in London denouncing terrorists as "the biggest enemies of Islam."

In his fatwa, ul-Qadri also said suicide bombers are destined for hell and strongly criticized Islamic extremists who cite Islam to justify violence.

"Terrorism and violence cannot be considered to be permissible in Islam on the basis of any excuse," he said.

"Any good intention or any mistake of foreign policy of any country or any pretext cannot legalize the act of terrorism."

Ul-Qadri told Amanpour he does not believe his message will reach the small number of radicals who have already been brainwashed. But he said hundreds of thousands of youths who are on the path, or have the potential to be radicalized, will listen to his fatwa.
Islamic scholar who condemned terrorism: 'I am not afraid' - CNN.com

It's nice to see someone finally speaking out; it's an extremely dangerous thing to do on his part, though. The questions they ask him are legitimate --> I wouldn't be surprised at all if someone made an attempt on his life within the next couple weeks.
 

FindMuck

Registered Member
#2
There are extremists in all religions and they are despised by 98%of the people of that religion. We don't judge Christianity by the Nazis or the KKK why should we judge Islam by Extremists when most Muslims think they are crazy.
 

Bjarki

Registered Member
#3
You cannot possibly compare the record of violence of christians and muslims over the past century..
We're not talking about a few nutjobs, we're talking about a structural problem within Islam.. even this guy himself admits there are hundreds of thousands of youths at risk of becoming radicals or even terrorists.
 

Sim

Registered Member
#4
But FindMuck does have a point: Holding all Muslims hostage for the deeds of a few among them, and starting a cultural war against them -- as sick xenophobic f*cks like Geert Wilders want -- is a violation of our most basic values, and more than unfair.

It's true that religious extremism is more widespread among Muslims than among Christians, and yes, there are problems with Muslims in Europe refusing to accept our values and to integrate. But although that's a significant minority among Muslims here, it's still just that, a minority. Most Muslims in Europe do not support terrorism, and most are willing to integrate.

A cultural war à la banning minarets, calling Quran a "book like Mein Kampf", discriminating Muslims Wilders-style is not in the slightest better than the Nazis' anti-Semitism, and a defecation on the Western value of freedom of religion. In these regards, people like Wilders are the equivalent of islamist supporters of terrorists, a Western hate-preacher.

We have to integrate the Muslims who live here, there is no other option. And that does not mean "appeasing" them. Because what other option is there? Making them 2nd class citizens? Forcing them to wear a yellow crescent? Rallying them up and putting them in camps? Everything Wilders wants boils down to a "final solution of the Muslim question" when you think it to its inevitable conclusion.

We need dialogue -- take the German government's appraoch at starting a regular "Islam conference", a dialogue between the representants of the Muslim communities in Germany and the state. It's a give and take -- Muslims get warrents for their religious practizes other religions enjoy already, and in return, the Muslim communities are obliged to respect the Constitution.

Of course that's not always easy, and there are hate preachers on both sides that refuse to participate in a dialogue. But if we don't want a new Holocaust, this time on Muslims, there is no alternative. They are here and we have no choice but getting along with them. Discriminating them won't solve the problem, but certainly create many more.

The US government has issued a report on the human righst situation in Europe last week and found severe problems regarding the discrimination of Muslims:

US report cites European discrimination against Muslims - Summary : US World

When I read reports like that, I feel ashamed to be European (for a change, while I'm usually proud on it).
 

Bjarki

Registered Member
#5
But FindMuck does have a point: Holding all Muslims hostage for the deeds of a few among them, and starting a cultural war against them -- as sick xenophobic f*cks like Geert Wilders want -- is a violation of our most basic values, and more than unfair.

It's true that religious extremism is more widespread among Muslims than among Christians, and yes, there are problems with Muslims in Europe refusing to accept our values and to integrate. But although that's a significant minority among Muslims here, it's still just that, a minority. Most Muslims in Europe do not support terrorism, and most are willing to integrate.
Truth is, muslims will never integrate if they are not willing to sacrifice what they hold most dear: the Islam.
If they are not willing to do this their fate will be similar to that of the Jews, who too held on to their religious traditions and thereby blocked any real opportunity to ever become a part of their host countries.
Migration movements have been plenty in human history, but most of them went without any significant problems. This was because the people quickly assimilated into the host population. The influence of religion has only been negative, unless the migrants and host population shared the same beliefs.

What's keeping muslims from integrating is not our 'discrimination', but their own tendency to isolate themselves from society, a process that starts in high school when they are stressing their own identity.. and rather than intermingling with the 'whites', they seek their own kind.
It's not fair to blame the natives for this, since well, we've never had any issues with other people from abroad.

Neither the German nor the French approach is gonna suffice in dealing with this problem. The Dutch isn't gonna do either, unless we take it to the full extreme: the complete ban of everything related to Islam from the public domain. No headscarves, no subsidies for mosques, no minarets, no dialogues with so called 'muslim organizations', no Islamic schools.
That's the only way IMO to completely assimilate muslim people in our societies. If we fail in doing this they will become second class citizens, or at best, an isolated group that will function only in the margin of society.

The US government has issued a report on the human righst situation in Europe last week and found severe problems regarding the discrimination of Muslims:

US report cites European discrimination against Muslims - Summary : US World

When I read reports like that, I feel ashamed to be European (for a change, while I'm usually proud on it).
There is no reason to be ashamed. I fully support the ban on headscarves, not only because it alienates people from one another, but also because a lot of girls are pressured to wear one.
This is not discrimination. In Tunesia officials are not allowed to wear headscarves either and the women are specifically discouraged to do so.

The US can complain all they want, but IMO they are in no position to do so (Guantanamo anyone?). The problems of the US with immigrants are also of an entirely different nature.
 

FindMuck

Registered Member
#6
You cannot possibly compare the record of violence of christians and muslims over the past century..
LOL. Yes I can, I most definitely can, don't forget who you're talking to.
We're not talking about a few nutjobs, we're talking about a structural problem within Islam.. even this guy himself admits there are hundreds of thousands of youths at risk of becoming radicals or even terrorists.
LOL. No were not, Islam Judaism and Christianity are all strikingly similar Islam just believes that Muhammad was the last prophet while Judiasm and Christianity don't. They even have a Madhi which is like a messiah that is supposed to come at the end of time. (Much like a second comming).

There are 4 schools of Islam only one of which contains extremists, and even then it is only about 10% of that school and they are all wahhabists. Furthermore this branch of Islam originated in Saudi Arabia which is an ally of the US and Western Europe, just saying.

Half my family is Muslim, you are not going to convince me with your propaganda I've read the Quran, I've prayed 5 times a day, I have lived in a place where a majority of the people are religious Muslims.

Also here is the phrase that people think is so violent, you will see how it can easily be used by extremists to justify violence because it can be twisted easily. This is not a structural problem with Islam, it is a structural problem with these people's brains:

Quran said:
Jihad


Qur'an 2:190-195


190. Fight in the cause of Allah, those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.
191. And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.
192. But if they cease, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
193. And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah; but if they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression.
194. The prohibited month for the prohibited month, and so for all things prohibited, there is the law of equality. If then anyone transgresses the prohibition against you, transgress ye likewise against him. But fear Allah, and know that Allah is with those who restrain themselves.
195. And spend of your substance in the cause of Allah, and make not your own hands contribute to your destruction, but do good; for Allah loveth those who do good.
^^^ As you can see, this is the verse explaining Jihad, and since you say there is structural problem with Islam that allows extremists to be violent, you would be referring to this verse, however if you read it, it provides no justification for their actions. Next time, please know what you're talking about before you get in an argument with someone.
 

Bjarki

Registered Member
#7
LOL. Yes I can, I most definitely can, don't forget who you're talking to.
Who am I talking to?

There are 4 schools of Islam only one of which contains extremists, and even then it is only about 10% of that school and they are all wahhabists. Furthermore this branch of Islam originated in Saudi Arabia which is an ally of the US and Western Europe, just saying.
Wahhabism is only one of many currents in Islam propagating violence or leading to extremism. It has not significantly influenced extremist movements abroad, neither in Egypt, Afghanistan, Pakistan nor the West.

Furthermore, the boundary between extremism and 'moderate' Islam is frail and vague.

If it were as simple as A=A and B=not A then it would just be a matter of taking out the 'bad guys'. Real life is much more complicated.

As you can see, this is the verse explaining Jihad, and since you say there is structural problem with Islam that allows extremists to be violent, you would be referring to this verse, however if you read it, it provides no justification for their actions.
Then tell me, if it is not the text of the Quran that drives people to violent acts, then what is it that does? What makes muslims so eager to declare jihad on their fellow earthlings and do them harm?

Do they all have brain disorders?

Or maybe, just maybe, is there something fundamentally flawed in the Islamic conception of society and interpersonal relationships or the practical implications of such?

Next time, please know what you're talking about before you get in an argument with someone.
Oh please..

Btw.. this debate is not about whether or not the Quran fuels extremism or not. It's about how we can succesfully integrate muslims into western society.
 

FindMuck

Registered Member
#8
Who am I talking to?
Someone who has personally seen and lived through extreme and unjustified violence by Christians against Muslims.
Wahhabism is only one of many currents in Islam propagating violence or leading to extremism. It has not significantly influenced extremist movements abroad, neither in Egypt, Afghanistan, Pakistan nor the West.
Yes it has, Osama Bin Laden's mentor was wahhabist, and if you say he didn't influence anything that I would make the claim that you don't know anything about the history of Islam.
Furthermore, the boundary between extremism and 'moderate' Islam is frail and vague.
No, actually, its not.
Then tell me, if it is not the text of the Quran that drives people to violent acts, then what is it that does? What makes muslims so eager to declare jihad on their fellow earthlings and do them harm?
IDK maybe how Western Europe and the US have been unjustly [email protected] the Middle East since 1914...You think the IDF isn't doing harm to the people of Gaza? You think the Russian army isn't doing harm to Chechnya? Use your brain everyone is harming everyone just as much as you say that Muslims are harming others. Bigotry is not a virtue.

Do they all have brain disorders?
You are very close to getting reported for racism.

Or maybe, just maybe, is there something fundamentally flawed in the Islamic conception of society and interpersonal relationships or the practical implications of such?
I jsut said there are 4 different schools of Islam, as well as two main different sects there is no one Islamic conception of society just as there is no one Christian conception of society. You have not provided a single shred fo evidence to support your views while I have.


Btw.. this debate is not about whether or not the Quran fuels extremism or not. It's about how we can succesfully integrate muslims into western society.
No its not, its about a Muslim scholar who denounced extremism, and your bigoted response that based on your personal prejudice and not any kind of knowledge of Islam, Muslims, politics, or history.
 

Bjarki

Registered Member
#9
Yes it has, Osama Bin Laden's mentor was wahhabist, and if you say he didn't influence anything that I would make the claim that you don't know anything about the history of Islam.
There's more than Osama Bin Laden and Al Qaeda.

IDK maybe how Western Europe and the US have been unjustly [email protected] the Middle East since 1914...You think the IDF isn't doing harm to the people of Gaza? You think the Russian army isn't doing harm to Chechnya? Use your brain everyone is harming everyone just as much as you say that Muslims are harming others. Bigotry is not a virtue.
Oh please. Conflict is of all time, if you wanna declare war on Israel or the US go ahead.. but slaughtering innocent civilians is an entirely different thing.

You are very close to getting reported for racism.
May I quote your words:
"This is not a structural problem with Islam, it is a structural problem with these people's brains"

No its not, its about a Muslim scholar who denounced extremism, and your bigoted response that based on your personal prejudice and not any kind of knowledge of Islam, Muslims, politics, or history.
Whatever.. it says enough that this scholar's move to denounce terrorism is considered to be a very bold act.
Over here you can (still) say christians are inferior people, that Jesus is a pedophile and that churches should be burnt to the ground. In the Islamic world you can't even state that you're against the brutal murder of innocent people. Says enough doesn't it?
 

FindMuck

Registered Member
#10
There's more than Osama Bin Laden and Al Qaeda.
Yes but they are the ones who have the most influence in the movement which goes directly against your previous statement.

Oh please. Conflict is of all time, if you wanna declare war on Israel or the US go ahead.. but slaughtering innocent civilians is an entirely different thing.
Where was I talking about Israel or the US, its mostly Britain's fault actually. To argue that the West has not fucked up the Middle East is to admit that you know nothing about history.

May I quote your words:
"This is not a structural problem with Islam, it is a structural problem with these people's brains"
I never said that. You're reported for trolling and harassment.

Whatever.. it says enough that this scholar's move to denounce terrorism is considered to be a very bold act.
Over here you can (still) say christians are inferior people, that Jesus is a pedophile and that churches should be burnt to the ground. In the Islamic world you can't even state that you're against the brutal murder of innocent people. Says enough doesn't it?
Its only considered a bold statement by the west, he wouldn't have said it if he didn't have support form the Muslim community or else he would be in a lot of trouble with them and probably have his status called into question as a Muslim scholar.

That's because Western Europe is not a theocracy, Islamic countries are, that's why they are Islamic countries. If there were a country run by Christian law you wouldn't be able to say any of those things either.