Is America on the downward spiral

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vman

Guest
#1
I've been looking at the late great Roman empire and its decline alot lately. And I see alot of similarities between its last years and the current state of our Grand democratic experiment

  • Declining patriotism
  • Increasing decadence
  • Bad leaders
  • Decline in republican values (government system not party)
  • Increasing economic dependance on foreign powers
It should be noted that Rome began to decline once the republic ended.
And unlike in the old days when almost any wayward government act brought the rallying call of "unconstitutional, we give the gov't a slap on the wrist and move on.
 
#2
Patriotism has been confused with loyalty to leaders .. people have forgotten the founders vow to leave well alone on foreign shores .. the bankers have more credibility than the post office workers & firefighters .. these are signs of Americas need for resurrection IMo

The Dupont legacy needs to go .. the original self sufficient nature of the states needs to be reinstated .. its a new age of nations who can maintain their staples alone & trade in specialized products & uniques ..
 
E

enc

Guest
#3
I've been looking at the late great Roman empire and its decline alot lately. And I see alot of similarities between its last years and the current state of our Grand democratic experiment
  • Declining patriotism
  • Increasing decadence
  • Bad leaders
  • Decline in republican values (government system not party)
  • Increasing economic dependance on foreign powers
It should be noted that Rome began to decline once the republic ended.
And unlike in the old days when almost any wayward government act brought the rallying call of "unconstitutional, we give the gov't a slap on the wrist and move on.
Rome did not begin to decline when the Republic ended. Contrary to what we love to think, Rome was still great, and in some ways even better, during the time of the Emperors than during the Republic. The true decline set in after the great leadership of Aurelius, with the reign of Commodus.

However, I would say that our current situation looks similar to the situation of Rome at the time of the Republic's downfall. Internal divisions, many external problems, uncertainty, and of course, a weak Senate. A weak Senate that voted for a stupid war, and voted for the Patriot Act, a direct violation of the constitution. We put so much stock in presidential elections, the ultimate ambition of politicians is not service to the republic but power and being the First Man of America, much like the ambition to be First Man in Rome.

If our Senate does not stop its idiocy and commit itself to the service of the Republic, strong personalities will step in to fill the void, such was the case in Rome with men like Sulla, Pompei, Caesar, Cato, etc. We look for strong and likeable leaders when we should be looking for strong servants of the Republic. Senators should be asked to serve as President, not seek it for themselves. After all, more time is spent seeking re-election or seeking the presidency than actually getting things done.

If America wants to stay a Republic, then we cannot drown in politics like the Romans did.
 

Kazmarov

For a Free Scotland
#4
Reform is the needed future of American government. Particularly, enthusiasm in government and increasing patriotism can be done by increasing the size of the house (to, say, 800-900 people) to increase representation, as well as extensive campaign finance reform. Certain duties will have to be sourced to state, and eventually local levels, though many things will still be federally controlled because it functions best at that scale.

Generally I forsee a culture war between secularists and evangelists intensifying...whether or not it will tear this nation limb from limb is to be determined.

I personally think that a removal of executive power and an institution of a parliamentary democracy will end the divisive and rather superflous figure of the President, who is foolishly head of state and of government.
 
B

blenderboy55

Guest
#5
Patriotism has been confused with loyalty to leaders .. people have forgotten the founders vow to leave well alone on foreign shores .. the bankers have more credibility than the post office workers & firefighters .. these are signs of Americas need for resurrection IMo

The Dupont legacy needs to go .. the original self sufficient nature of the states needs to be reinstated .. its a new age of nations who can maintain their staples alone & trade in specialized products & uniques ..
That's true, but that doesn't apply to every situation. Though hindsight is 20/20, it applied to situations like Vietnam and Iraq.

However, if we followed it, Hitler would have won WW2, and other examples.

Also, I don't know how closely you guys are following the development of the North American Union (thanks neo-cons:censored: ), but I'd worry about America existing more than the state of it.
 
S

Stay Away

Guest
#6
Declining patriotism
You have no proof of that but your own preconcived notions
Increasing decadence
Right...... no proof but your own opinion
Bad leaders
America hasn't had good leaders since maybe Lincoln if not earlier. Ever heard of the Gilded Age (or age of rampant political corruption)
Decline in republican values (government system not party)
As in fewer people like a Republic system. Thats the only thing here that is even semi worrisome, yes go to any college and you'll find out, somehow, that the U.S.S.R. won the Cold War.
Increasing economic dependance on foreign powers
The U.S. has always been dependant on foreign trade. It was only with the Hawley-Smoot tarriff of 1929, when we tried to end foreign trade that we ever fell into a real depression.
Even in the 1800's the depended almost solely on Britain and France for numerous products.
 
V

vman

Guest
#7
You have no proof of that but your own preconcived notions

Right...... no proof but your own opinion

America hasn't had good leaders since maybe Lincoln if not earlier. Ever heard of the Gilded Age (or age of rampant political corruption)

As in fewer people like a Republic system. Thats the only thing here that is even semi worrisome, yes go to any college and you'll find out, somehow, that the U.S.S.R. won the Cold War.

The U.S. has always been dependant on foreign trade. It was only with the Hawley-Smoot tarriff of 1929, when we tried to end foreign trade that we ever fell into a real depression.
Even in the 1800's the depended almost solely on Britain and France for numerous products.
When I say patriotism I mean general concern for the welfare of our nation and I can pretty much prove that with documentation of voter turn out.

If you want evidence of decadence and as a result exuburance ,as in Rome, look at how many people know who won the last American Idol as opposed to how many know who the new secretary general of the U.N. is. Or look at how many people young and old seek to live the pointless fanciful life of the celebrity, rather than a productive life.

As for leaders. I'm not going to argue you down about post Lincoln leaders. Because Rome didn't collapse in a day, 200 years of mediocre leaders can easily lead to the death of a Republic.

I don't know how many people even know enough to dislike the Republican system but either way it's a problem.

Trade is not dependence, in the beginning America produced what it could and imported what it needed all involved parties benifitted in a roughly equal proportion. As a result America played an active role in the world economic system. We were in our manufacturing stage. Now we are a service and trade economy; only manufacturers grow all others stagnate. And where there is stagnation decline can't be far behind, evident in the fact that our growth is declining rapidly. TRADE IS A GOOD THING DEPENDENCE IS
NOT. Pure importation is not the way to a boom economy.
 
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blenderboy55

Guest
#8
When I say patriotism I mean general concern for the welfare of our nation and I can pretty much prove that with documentation of voter turn out.

If you want evidence of decadence and as a result exuburance ,as in Rome, look at how many people know who won the last American Idol as opposed to how many know who the new secretary general of the U.N. is. Or look at how many people young and old seek to live the pointless fanciful life of the celebrity, rather than a productive life.

As for leaders. I'm not going to argue you down about post Lincoln leaders. Because Rome didn't collapse in a day, 200 years of mediocre leaders can easily lead to the death of a Republic.

I don't know how many people even know enough to dislike the Republican system but either way it's a problem.

Trade is not dependence, in the beginning America produced what it could and imported what it needed all involved parties benifitted in a roughly equal proportion. As a result America played an active role in the world economic system. We were in our manufacturing stage. Now we are a service and trade economy; only manufacturers grow all others stagnate. And where there is stagnation decline can't be far behind, evident in the fact that our growth is declining rapidly. TRADE IS A GOOD THING DEPENDENCE IS
NOT. Pure importation is not the way to a boom economy.
I agree with what you said, but let's face facts:

The winner of American Idol has more international power than the secretary general ;)
 
S

Stay Away

Guest
#9
When I say patriotism I mean general concern for the welfare of our nation and I can pretty much prove that with documentation of voter turn out.
Yeah, thats true, most people don't really care terribly much about America's originaal prinples. I thought you meant America in general. Most people in America like America. They just don't know why.

If you want evidence of decadence and as a result exuburance ,as in Rome, look at how many people know who won the last American Idol as opposed to how many know who the new secretary general of the U.N. is. Or look at how many people young and old seek to live the pointless fanciful life of the celebrity, rather than a productive life.
People want to be entertained more then they want to know about the U.S. relations with the U.N.

But young people, unless funded by their parents, still probably get jobs. Even if their attitudes are poor, it'd be more worrisome if they couldn't find jobs.


I don't know how many people even know enough to dislike the Republican system but either way it's a problem.
Well most people don't like freedom free trade, the founding principles of a Republic


TRADE IS A GOOD THING DEPENDENCE IS
NOT. Pure importation is not the way to a boom economy.
How is America dependent?
 
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blenderboy55

Guest
#10
How is America dependent?
Is that a joke?

We have a tremendous trade decifict, especially with China.

It's really screwing the economy.

We also have way too many foreign investors.

If even half pulled out, our economy would go down the drain.:sad: