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If you don't obey EVERY single word of your sacred text, surely you are a sinner too?

Gavik

Registered Member
Sonnilion said:
Also, you compared a tragedy by Shakespeare to a spiritual text. Two completely different types of writing. There are plenty of writings that are up to interpretation and do not have to be followed by every word. For example, you can like a philosopher, but not have to agree with every word they say, and ignore what you disagree with.
But there aren't entire institutions based on the idea that you will suffer eternally if you don't agree with a philosopher.

I have to disagree with you here. This view is no better than the fundamentalist book worshippers who argue that you cant pick and choose the word of God.
If this makes me as a fundamentalist atheist, then so be it.

I know of Christains who do not believe in the bible, they believe in JC and most of the events that went with him, they believe in his teachings and his message to be one of the most corrupted books in history (...and other than the first two points I agree with them;)).
If you wanna say that you think Jesus was a pretty cool guy but don't like his book, so be it.

The thing is their is absolutely no reason to say you cant, and secondly there is absolutely no reason to believe it is (ie. the bible).

The point is, you can pick and choose. Anyone who says otherwise is a hypocrite as they picked and chose to interpret whoever interpretation/narrative/story/selection/etc.. that was picked and chosen.
Sure, there's no law saying you can't pick and choose. You can do that for anything. However, my original claim is not hypocritical. I'm not subscribing to an interpretation. The bible proclaims itself to be the word of god, as do many churches. All I said was that if you claim the bible to be the word of god, it's hypocritical not to follow all of it. Otherwise, why listen to anything the bible says at all?
 
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Ilus_Unistus

Registered Member
I have to disagree with you here. This view is no better than the fundamentalist book worshippers who argue that you cant pick and choose the word of God. The thing is their is absolutely no reason to say you cant, and secondly there is absolutely no reason to believe it is (ie. the bible).

I know of Christains who do not believe in the bible, they believe in JC and most of the events that went with him, they believe in his teachings and his message to be one of the most corrupted books in history (...and other than the first two points I agree with them;)).

The point is, you can pick and choose. Anyone who says otherwise is a hypocrite as they picked and chose to interpret whoever interpretation/narrative/story/selection/etc.. that was picked and chosen.

My problem with this statement is, Though you say it is okay to pick and choose portions of the Bible to believe or follow how then can one proclaim to be Christian?

Like this... I believe SOME things the Bible says to be worth while reading as I think it does relay some good values. But I 100% do not believe 3/4 of what the Bible teaches and I do not believe there to be a God or that Jesus was any savior. But according to you I myself am a Christian because I choose to believe the Bible does have some good values in it?

Also, IF it is acceptable to pick and choose parts of the Bible to be considered a Christian how can ANY Christian preach how Creation is correct, Evolution is wrong or not believing in God and or Jesus will send you to Hell when they them selves only choose to believe what they wish of the Bible? I understand how people for thousands of years were "brainwashed" into thinking this literature is valid to any extent but to me it is delusional to me.

As you said and a key point you made about how women in the times when the sections I quoted were seen differently, would it not be true of all things the Bible says? Like Creation etc? It to me is simple, better understanding ALL things is today, not 4000 years ago.


I hope I am making my point Banana's, it is not always so easy for me to say what I like in English.
 
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Daemonic

Registered Member
My problem with this statement is, Though you say it is okay to pick and choose portions of the Bible to believe or follow how then can one proclaim to be Christian?

Like this... I believe SOME things the Bible says to be worth while reading as I think it does relay some good values. But I 100% do not believe 3/4 of what the Bible teaches and I do not believe there to be a God or that Jesus was any savior. But according to you I myself am a Christian because I choose to believe the Bible does have some good values in it?

Also, IF it is acceptable to pick and choose parts of the Bible to be considered a Christian how can ANY Christian preach how Creation is correct, Evolution is wrong or not believing in God and or Jesus will send you to Hell when they them selves only choose to believe what they wish of the Bible? I understand how people for thousands of years were "brainwashed" into thinking this literature is valid to any extent but to me it is delusional to me.

As you said and a key point you made about how women in the times when the sections I quoted were seen differently, would it not be true of all things the Bible says? Like Creation etc? It to me is simple, better understanding ALL things is today, not 4000 years ago.


I hope I am making my point Banana's, it is not always so easy for me to say what I like in English.
As for your first question, as I already covered, because they believe in the teachings of Christ. You're arguing over semantics.

As for your question about how some Christians can preach about creationism, etc....

That goes back to what I said about different branches of Christianity or if the person even belongs to a specific group and even interpretation. It depends on the Christian or group they belong to.

Just because you believe the bible has some good values does not make you a Christian. You do not believe in the teachings of Christ.
 

CaptainObvious

Son of Liberty
V.I.P.
My problem with this statement is, Though you say it is okay to pick and choose portions of the Bible to believe or follow how then can one proclaim to be Christian?

Like this... I believe SOME things the Bible says to be worth while reading as I think it does relay some good values. But I 100% do not believe 3/4 of what the Bible teaches and I do not believe there to be a God or that Jesus was any savior. But according to you I myself am a Christian because I choose to believe the Bible does have some good values in it?

Also, IF it is acceptable to pick and choose parts of the Bible to be considered a Christian how can ANY Christian preach how Creation is correct, Evolution is wrong or not believing in God and or Jesus will send you to Hell when they them selves only choose to believe what they wish of the Bible? I understand how people for thousands of years were "brainwashed" into thinking this literature is valid to any extent but to me it is delusional to me.

As you said and a key point you made about how women in the times when the sections I quoted were seen differently, would it not be true of all things the Bible says? Like Creation etc? It to me is simple, better understanding ALL things is today, not 4000 years ago.


I hope I am making my point Banana's, it is not always so easy for me to say what I like in English.
I think your first problem is you show your bias towards Christianity and the Bible by labeling those that have believed in it and followed it as brainwashed and it is delusional to you. Until you look at it as objectively as you can and stop demeaning those that you disagree with you're not going to understand the point he is making.

Secondly I don't see the logic in stating you HAVE to believe in EVERY SINGLE word in the Bible. I know many people who consider themselves Christians and follow the teaching of Jesus Christ and do charity work, volunteer their time and money to help the needy, are just good all around people who love their fellow man and don't believe in stoning anyone. How that makes them hypocrites is beyond me.
 

Daemonic

Registered Member
But there aren't entire institutions based on the idea that you will suffer eternally if you don't agree with a philosopher.
There are also different views or interpretations on what exactly hell is, forgiveness, etc.

I guess it's up to the Christian to decide how they understand those things.
 

Ilus_Unistus

Registered Member
I think your first problem is you show your bias towards Christianity and the Bible by labeling those that have believed in it and followed it as brainwashed and it is delusional to you. Until you look at it as objectively as you can and stop demeaning those that you disagree with you're not going to understand the point he is making.
First, saying it seems delusional to me is my opinion of any religion. It is not meant to demean anyone it is how I feel, and I, as a person am entitled to express how I view religion am I not?

Second, as stated I have read much of the Bible openly and weighed its knowledge to that of modern science/geology and made my OWN objective opinion on it.

Third, the term I used, Brainwashed. If your parents had not told you there was an Easter Bunny and everyone's parents did the same for 4000 years, would it stand to reason the Easter Bunny would be in fact real? This is the context in which the Bible brainwashes. It is taught at an early age without question or reason to doubt it, because it is what people have said is the truth for 4000 years or more. It is completely understandable to me why or how people would accept it as truth for this reason.

Secondly I don't see the logic in stating you HAVE to believe in EVERY SINGLE word in the Bible. I know many people who consider themselves Christians and follow the teaching of Jesus Christ and do charity work, volunteer their time and money to help the needy, are just good all around people who love their fellow man and don't believe in stoning anyone. How that makes them hypocrites is beyond me.
To me, and I use Gaviks example, it is like to read Shakespeare and change the parts you do not like to make the play your way. It is not as it was intended and is something that should in fact remain unchanged. Christians are the worst as far as belittle people like me, those who do not believe. To them I am going to Hell without question, so why them should I concern myself with not offending them with how I believe, and believing in what I believe? I should apologize because I am not a Christian? I think not.
 

CaptainObvious

Son of Liberty
V.I.P.
First, saying it seems delusional to me is my opinion of any religion. It is not meant to demean anyone it is how I feel, and I, as a person am entitled to express how I view religion am I not?

Second, as stated I have read much of the Bible openly and weighed its knowledge to that of modern science/geology and made my OWN objective opinion on it.
Of course you are entitled to express that opinion, just as I am entitled to express myself and say it's not appropriate to demean those that you disagree with.


Third, the term I used, Brainwashed. If your parents had not told you there was an Easter Bunny and everyone's parents did the same for 4000 years, would it stand to reason the Easter Bunny would be in fact real? This is the context in which the Bible brainwashes. It is taught at an early age without question or reason to doubt it, because it is what people have said is the truth for 4000 years or more. It is completely understandable to me why or how people would accept it as truth for this reason.
The difference is the Easter Bunny doesn't exist. Neither you or I can prove or disprove the existence of God.



To me, and I use Gaviks example, it is like to read Shakespeare and change the parts you do not like to make the play your way. It is not as it was intended and is something that should in fact remain unchanged. Christians are the worst as far as belittle people like me, those who do not believe. To them I am going to Hell without question, so why them should I concern myself with not offending them with how I believe, and believing in what I believe? I should apologize because I am not a Christian? I think not.
As has been pointed out Shakespeare is literature. People can choose to interpret it as they choose or like or not like it. Hamlet is not professing to be the truth about anything.

No one is asking you to apologize for anything. There are people on this Earth that think minorities such as myself are second class citizens, should I in turn offend ALL people of such nationlaities and ethnicities?

The point is, if you don't believe there is a hell then what do you care where they think you're going to spend the rest of eternity?

EDIT: There are those of the Muslim faith who believe somone such as myself, a non-Muslim, will not be with Allah upon death and I should die as a nonbeliever. Since I disagree with them what do I care what they think? And since I can't prove either way whether I'm right or they're right why would I call them delusional? They're entitled to their beliefs but I wouldn't give a warm bucket of gorilla piss what those beliefs are.
 
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Gavik

Registered Member
There are also different views or interpretations on what exactly hell is, forgiveness, etc.

I guess it's up to the Christian to decide how they understand those things.
Are there different interpretations of "stoning" too?

If you wanna live by the bible and call it the word of god, fine, just don't pick and choose the word of good.

If you wanna call yourself a christian and not call the bible the word of god, fine, just don't use the bible to justify your beliefs.
 

Daemonic

Registered Member
Are there different interpretations of "stoning" too?

If you wanna live by the bible and call it the word of god, fine, just don't pick and choose the word of good.

If you wanna call yourself a christian and not call the bible the word of god, fine, just don't use the bible to justify your beliefs.
I don't see where you are going with your first question, stoning is stoning, I don't see how that has anything to do with how people interpret the parts on forgiveness, hell, etc.

As for the next part, that can be complicated because it depends on how the person or group understands the Bible. This is the exact reason we have different branches of Christianity. It isn't so much about picking and choosing but understanding.

Last, since Christ is part of the Bible, it would only make sense that a Christian may use parts of the bible of justify their beliefs.
 

Ilus_Unistus

Registered Member
Are there different interpretations of "stoning" too?

If you wanna live by the bible and call it the word of god, fine, just don't pick and choose the word of good.

If you wanna call yourself a christian and not call the bible the word of god, fine, just don't use the bible to justify your beliefs.

I agree 100% Gavik.

To take only parts of something as serious as religion when it is or is not convenient is like to use Newtons laws and say, "sure the apple falls as Newton says, but it is not Gravity that does it, it is Carbon molecules in the air that cause this, but yes I believe in Newtons Laws." That is ridiculous! Either you believe what Newton says or you do not, you cant say he was right but you made it "more right", it does not work this way.

When it comes to things like, aging the Universe or the Earth I do not say science is right but wrong how they did their findings, to me it is absolute and I can not deny or disprove it in any way.

@CaptainObvious:

You say you can not prove or disprove God, but you are sure the Easter Bunny is fake? Prove it.

I promise for every link you give to disprove this I can provide 2 to say the same about God, so be creative.

Also
CaptianObvious said:
They're entitled to their beliefs but I wouldn't give a warm bucket of gorilla piss what those beliefs are.
This statement is any less demeaning to Muslims than what I said?
 
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