If the US is so bad...

Discussion in 'Other Discussions' started by Mirage, Sep 12, 2008.

  1. Mirage

    Mirage Administrator Staff Member V.I.P.

    If the US is so bad, why does it remain #1 in number of new legal immigrants every year? (Not even taking into account the illegals).

    If more people are moving to the US every year than to ANY other nation in the world, we must be doing something right.

    The "change" Obama speaks of would make the US more like the nations people are LEAVING to come to the US.


  2. Sim

    Sim Registered Member

    Well first I think the US is only #1 immigration country because it's the by far largest Western country. When you take the numbers of immigrants per capita, I assume many European countries have similar immigration patterns, some maybe even higher. The EU as a whole also has a massive influx of illegal immigrants.

    And I don't think the US are "bad". The US are still more wealthy than most other countries on this planet, and considerin Latin America is less wealthy, and geographically close, it's no surprise most immigrants to the US come from there. Most immigrants to the EU come from Arab or sub-Saharan Africa, because of geographical proximity.

    But that doesn't mean everything the US are doing is good, or that it couldn't be better. In fact I see a huge waste of potential in America under Bush. America *could* be even much better than it is today. I guess that wasted potential is what causes many people to criticize.

    And criticism is better than praise, because it allows you to see shortcomings, to solve existing problems and to improve even more.
  3. agphoenix

    agphoenix Everything goes.

    While your statement is based on stats I'm sure, there's a pinch of salt to be taken with them. I lived there for about 14 years, and I remember how excited a lot of my friends and fellow students at the time were about coming to the U.S. When I left, I remember hearing and knowing so many people who were just ready to go back to their home countries. Some did, and others didn't. When you refer to the U.S. as being 'bad', I believe you might be taking a few too many factors and schools of thought into consideration. Many wanted to leave due to the economic issues the U.S. had started to deal with; those made them re-think whether leaving their motherlands for the 'land of opportunity' was worth it.

    After 9/11, many foreigners became the target of extreme prejudice, and that definitely makes for second thoughts. On the other hand, political and business conflicts amongst countries outside the U.S. had escalated so much that people wanted to leave their lives there! End result; resent the U.S. but abuse the opportunities, which I personally can tell you were almost coming to a halt when I left. When a law is passed 'stating' that foreign residents who only have Green Cards and not Citizenship have to go through two times the paperwork in order to get promoted at their workplaces, many political, legal and some constitutional lines begin to blur.

    Statistics also don't take into account the fact that thousands of foreigners are being brought into the U.S. by many American business giants. One that comes to mind immediately is Microsoft. They are hiring engineers from places around the world like India and the Far East in order to replace the existing Americans working for them. The incoming foreigners are given green cards, and are paid perhaps two-thirds of what Microsoft paid good old Mr.Jim Bob. The point is that many of those foreigners are not just rushing to the U.S. to set up camp, but accepting an excellent job offer, as would any of us no matter where the offer may be from. And remember Microsoft will only give them Green Cards, not Citizenship. That slips hands with the point I made earlier. Also, keep in mind that technically advanced countries like the U.S. are much more capable of studying and recording statistics like these, and are therefore able to manage them in any way they please. When the 'INS' or the 'Immigration and Naturalization Services' changes its name to 'Homeland Security', thought must be given as to why some people still wish to enter the States, despite the fact that they have to fill out forms in the 'Homeland Security' department. Not the most positive message and yet they enter. There's one very prominent explanation for this.

    Taking into consideration foreigner's standards of living and political atmospheres in their countries, it's not about the U.S. being good or bad; it's about the U.S. being the lesser of two evils.

    And there can be an entirely new thread about why the almost deafening voices resounding about the U.S. being 'bad' are coming from the Middle East in particular. I strongly recommend not starting that thread though! :)
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2008
    Syndicate, ysabel and Bananas like this.
  4. Bananas

    Bananas Endangered Species

    Excellent posts Sim & Pheonix, it is hard to follow.

    On the subject of immigration it all depends on the statistics you interpret to how the US fairs. If you look at total number alone then the USA is #1, if you consider the EU as a single entity then it would be #1, if you consider net immigration then the UAE, HongKong and Canada are considerably higher than the USA. Of course this all means nothing unless you consider neighbouring prosperity and equalities. If we are to look at the most accurate statistic that should lure immigrants9and would be impacted by Obama's Change) then it is which country is the most economically free(the USA is #5 in that list).

    On the above quote though. There is a huge difference between becoming more like and becoming. You have to be careful in the choice of words here as the opposing factor could say that without the "change" the USA would become more like Nazi Germany:rolleyes:. It all sounds a bit like right-wing rhetoric and hysteria where any socialist factor should be instantly discarded. every county swings and ebbs along that imaginary line, without revolution no country would make the giant leap needed, and for the US to become like those the immigrants have left would require a drastic and highly improbably chain of events, Obama's change is defiantly not one of them.
  5. Sim

    Sim Registered Member

    I couldn't agree more. Hybrix, what makes you think Obama's "change" would make America more like those countries they are leaving? Because Obama's "change" would result in rampant poverty, non-existing health care, civil war, lack of political stability, lack of free education and so on? Because I think those are the reasons they are leaving their countries for. And you cannot seriously claim Obama wants to bring all that about.

    If you are running on the absurd "socialism" meme, then let me tell you that "socialism" is the least reason why immirants leave their countries. On the contrary: I'm pretty sure many immigrants would rather come to European welfare states than to America, because quality of life is even much better there. They just cannot, because it's too far away -- you can maybe walk over the border from Mexico, or illegally ship over in small boats from Costa Rica, Haiti or Cuba, but not over the Atlantic.

    If at all, Obama's "change" would make America a little more like western Europe, assuming he'd introduce public health care. You may agree or disagree with that. But there are not fewer immigrants coming to western Europe, than to the US. And maybe even more would want to come if they enjoyed an even better quality of life due to public healthcare and/or welfare.
  6. ExpectantlyIronic

    ExpectantlyIronic e̳̳̺͕ͬ̓̑̂ͮͦͣ͒͒h̙ͦ̔͂?̅̂ ̾͗̑

    Progress in America is always un-American. Replacing the Articles of Confederation with the Constitution was un-American. Abolishing slavery was un-American. Women's suffrage was un-American. The New Deal was un-American. The civil rights movement was un-American. Etc. The country was just fine before all those things--just look at all the immigrants that have always flooded here--but people who hated America just went and changed things anyways. Maybe they were inspired by our very un-British founders.
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2008
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  7. pro2A

    pro2A Hell, It's about time!

    Funny how all the liberals reject that capitalism and free trade have nothing to do with it.
  8. Swiftstrike

    Swiftstrike Registered Member

    That is a factor too. But a lot of other countries also have a similar economic system. America is just pretty prominent economically.
  9. Bananas

    Bananas Endangered Species

    Who has rejected free trade and capitalism as a reason for migration?

    Quote me where a liberal(or anyone) rejected free trade and capitalism as a reason for migration......if you can do this then I will happily quote at least three points already made in this thread, where free-trade and capitalism has already been highlighted as positive values for migration.

    .......What I'm asking of you is to READ the thread and then to contribute to the debate instead of just being a troll with a reply using a bunch of words you don't seem to fully understand the meaning of based on no substance what so ever.....can you do that or are you a troll?
  10. Jeanie

    Jeanie still nobody's bitch V.I.P. Lifetime

    funny how you continue to make blanket statments about "all the liberals" without facts and sources to back your statements up.
    padd likes this.

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