I had an argument about Christianity

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Alex37, May 19, 2010.

  1. Alex37

    Alex37 Registered Member

    I was arguing with a Christian who was trying to convince me that Judaism is false. He gave me a poor argument, but my answers were satisfying. I'm a Jew and I am sure about my Judaism, only Judaism is God's real religion, and no other religion will ever convince me otherwise. So if you want to answer me in the name of the poor Christian, do it. Below my last answer to the Christian, I have pointed out my argument points.

    I don't deny anything, I'm explaining you why I don't accept this person as a Messiah - because he wasn't the Messiah, if he was, we were living in peace today. But since he wasn't the Messiah, which means that the Messiah didn't come yet, humanity is still in suffering, suffering that will only end before the times of the real Messiah.

    In what way did he save us spiritually? He actually did the opposite - the Jewish people were almost united during his times, but then he came and made people think that he was the Messiah, even though he wasn't, and the Romans, who accepted him, attacked the Jewish people instead of helping them. Jesus caused wars and pain, death and destruction.

    Balaam predicted that one day a man will come and will claim that he's god, and warned humanity not to follow him. He predicted that many nations will follow this person, but the people who are loyal to God's real rules, will know not to fall to this person's tricks. In the ten commandments, it is said that you shall not worship any gods other than God.

    Since Jesus claimed that he was a god, it makes him, and all of his followers, sinners. He did not make himself known by spirit, but by the power of the sword. You see pictures of him on Churches - these Churches break one of the ten commandments, that say that you shall not have a picture or a statue.

    You believe in a cross - the cross was a tool of death, not of peace, and if Jesus was killed by a gun, you people were worshiping a gun.

    You claim that the people who suffer are righteous, but the Christian people suffered less than every other people - the Jewish people are those who suffer.

    You divide your belief of god to three parts, instead of accepting the unity of God and his perfection. God said that he is the first, the last, and there is no one like him. When he said that he is the last, he meant it.

    In what way do I end life? I'm an Israeli Jew and live in Israel, and we are attacked daily by the Arab Muslims. We do not live in peace, we protect ourselves through two things - we are one nation and we work together; we are united in our actions, and we are united spiritually. We in Israel also protect Christian Churches and Islamic Mosques - while you give us nothing in return.

    We protect the unity of God, and we only pray to God, while you pray to many different people. We believe in and practice God's real rules, while you decided to follow a false messiah and forgot everything that the real God ordered humanity.

    Christmas is a Pagan celebration, and when you celebrate it, you show exactly what your religion is - faked. Jesus was speaking against the real God, and because of him, many Jews sinned. In order to follow him, people left their parents and stopped practising their religion, which is another violation of one of the ten commandments - respect your father and your mother.

    Jesus' followers gave Judas a bad name, even though he did what Jesus asked him to do, and Jesus himself stole his ideas from John the Baptist, which is a theft of an idea, another act that God hates.

    You blamed the Jews for being traitors, while you are the real traitors - you left God's real religion, which reminds me of what is told in your own ideological stories: Judas, one of Jesus' followers, was a Christian, while Jesus was a Jew. The same way you blame the whole Jewish nation for Judas actions - you are the one who should, by your twisted logic, be blamed, because Judas was the Christian and not Jesus.

    The fact that Jesus became famous doesn't make him more acceptable in any way, and it doesn't justify his sins. The Messiah will be from the seed of King David, something that Jesus wasn't. Mohammed made more sins of between man and people, while Jesus made more sins of between man and God. Both lied and spoke in god's name in vain, another violation of the ten commandments. Mohammed broke the law of 'you shall not murder', Jesus broke the law of 'God is one and there is no one like him'. For these reasons we do not accept neither Jesus nor Mohammed, and as God told us, we stay loyal only to our one and only God, the creator of the sky, and the land, and the sea, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and his one and only religion that was first revealed to the greatest prophet Moses, and his (God's) eternal capital Jerusalem, that is in Zion (Israel).

    We are in a physical and religious war with the Muslims, but we are in a religious and spiritual war with the Christians. Jesus was a humiliation to the Jews, which is equal to being a spiritual bloodshed; Jesus spiritually murdered all Jews who followed him. Only Judaism is God's real religion.

    1. The Messiah will come when there will be peace, that wasn't the situation in Jesus' times.

      [*]Jesus divided the Jewish people instead of uniting them.

      [*]His followers attacked Jews.

      [*]He brought pain and wars to the world.

      [*]It was predicted by Balaam that one day a person will claim that he's God, and Balaam said that even though many will follow this person, real God's followers won't.

      [*]When Jesus claimed that he was a god, he violated one of that ten commandments, that one that makes it clear that there is only one God.

      [*]He became famous not because of his ideas, but because of the wars of the Roman empire.

      [*]The Messiah is supposed to be completely human.

      [*]Pictures of him inside Churches are a clear violation of one of the ten commandments, you shall not make a picture or a statue.

      [*]The cross is a symbol of death, and if Jesus was killed by a gun, the Christians were worshiping a gun.

      [*]The Christians claim that Jesus died for humanity's sins, but the death of one person can neither change God's plan for humanity (God doesn't want any human sacrifice, he made it clear when he tested Abraham), nor is it the job of the Messiah.

      [*]Jesus didn't fit the standarts of the Messiah, he failed the tests.

      [*]The Christians say that the poor and those who suffer are the rightous, but those who suffer are the Jews and not the Christians.

      [*]The Christians eat bread and drink wine, and claim that they eat Jesus, which is really a disrespectful act against this person.

      [*]The idea of an original sin doesn't exist in the Tanakh, and it was only invented by the later Christians.

      [*]The Messiah will come when humanity's problems will be solved, which was clearly not in Jesus' times.

      [*]The Christians were wrong when they said that god punished the Jews forever, because God doesn't punish anyone forever, and the fact is that the Jews have returned to the Jewish homeland.

      [*]Heaven and Hell are not mentioned in the Tanakh even once.

      [*]The Christians don't accept God's unity, and divide their god to three parts.

      [*]God himself said that he is the last, so he can't have any sons.

      [*]The Jewish people have only one country, while the Christians have many countries, which had wars against each other instead of being united.

      [*]Jews protect Churches and Mosques better than Christians and Muslims who "protect" Synagogues.

      [*]Jews are loyal to all of God's rules, while the Christians only believe in the ten commandments.

      [*]Jews only pray to the one God, Christians pray to many people.

      [*]Christmas is originally a Pagan celebration.

      [*]Jews who followed Jesus made sins.

      [*]Jews who followed Jesus broke the ten commandments, because they had to leave their father and mother, and leave their parent's religion.

      [*]Christians blamed the whole Jewish nation for the actions of Judas, even though Judas did what Jesus told him to do (according to himself).

      [*]Judas was actually the Christian, because he followed Jesus, Jesus was the Jew.

      [*]Jesus broke God's rule when he stole his ideas from John the Baptist.

      [*]The fact that Jesus became famous, doesn't justify his actions.

      [*]The Messiah will be from the seed of King David, Jesus wasn't from King David's seed.

      [*]Both Jesus and Mohammed lied, they spoke in God's name in vain, and violated another of the ten commandments.

      [*]Not only that Jesus stole John's ideas, John was Jesus' teacher, so Jesus violated the rule of respecting the teachers.

      [*]Mary Magdalene was the only person who claimed to have seen Jesus after his death, but she isn't refered to as important enough in Christianity, despite her importance in Christianity's formation, and Christians refer to her as a whore.

      [*]The Tanakh was written by Jews, not by Christians.

      [*]Many crimes were done in the name of Christianity.

      [*]Jesus was a humiliation for the Jews, he gave us a bad name.

      [*]Jesus didn't do anything that is even close to God's miracles.

      [*]The Christians don't know and don't follow any Jewish traditions, so when the real Messiah will come, he obviously won't be a Christian.

      [*]The real Messiah will be a king, that will be accepted by all nations immediately, something that Jesus wasn't.
    42. The Holy Temple wasn't rebuild during Jesus' times.

    43. When the real Messiah will come, all nations in the world will know about the God of Israel, something that didn't happen when Jesus was alive.

    44. Jesus died. A real god can't die, so Jesus wasn't god.

    45. The Jewish rules say that if a man claims to be God, he is a liar.

    46. The Christians claim that Jesus will return to life, but the real Messiah is supposed to only come to the world once, ​

    47. When the Messiah will come, the nations will understand what wrong they did to the Jews, something that didn't happen during Jesus' times, and even couldn't happen during his times, because many actions against Jews were done after Jesus' times, which is a proof of itself that he wasn't the Messiah.

    48. Jesus did not keep God's eternal rules, but he claimed to be the messiah, which means that he was a false prophet.

    49. It is said, the fathers will not be punished for the sons, and vice versa, so the idea of Jesus dying for humanity's sins doesn't make any sense.

    50. There have never been any Christian prophets, and God didn't promise anything to the Christians, so the Christians are not a chosen people.
    Last edited: May 19, 2010

  2. idisrsly

    idisrsly I'm serious V.I.P. Lifetime

    Alex, I would love to respond to your OP, but I find it extremely difficult to try and follow. I am not sure who said what? Is the bold at the bottom what he said? And the paragraph above the bold? Is that you're opinions you made?

    If you could maybe break it down a bit neater I will certainly try and make sense of it and would be happy to have a civilized discussion about Christianity vs Judaism.

    That said, the top bit that I could figure out, I saw how hateful this Chirstians' responses were. I do not approve of his demeaner, but hey!

    May I ask on which forum you had this discussion? VM or PM me if you do not wish to share that in public!
    Last edited by a moderator: May 19, 2010
    Smelnick likes this.
  3. Alex37

    Alex37 Registered Member

    Everything that is written in the frame of "Never Surrender" is what he said, everything that I said is in the frame of "Alex37". My last response is a long mass of sentences one after the other, while the sentences below (in bold, with a space of two lines between every sentence) are are concise sentences that sum up each of my points.

    On file.front forums. Why is that important?
    Last edited: May 19, 2010
  4. Great100

    Great100 Registered Member

    I just have to say this: The Jews rejected Jesus as there Messiah and killed him. It was mentioned in the bible that Jesus was not meant to be an earthly king. He wasn't meant to be born in a rich, powerful family. He came to serve others not people serving him. He came tell everyone about God. He came to die for our sins not to take throne. The problem as that people didn't believe him and he being a humble man, he could easily prove that he was the Messiah but he didn't because he wanted people to believe in him by faith. I respect Judaism or any other reiligion. But I'm a Christian as well and I just wanted to point this out.
  5. AngelsPeak

    AngelsPeak Wanna play?

    Like CG pointed out, it's all too confusing to make sense of.

    My question is this, did you have the conversation on a public forum or was it in private? If it was the latter, did you get his permission to post all of that for others to read?
  6. Wade8813

    Wade8813 Registered Member

    Alex37 - would it be alright with you if I edited your post to make it more readable? I wouldn't change any of the content, just reorganize things a bit.

    You raise some points that I'll address, but it'll be easier for me (and everyone else) if it's easier to read.
  7. Alex37

    Alex37 Registered Member

    Okay, organize it if it's not readable enough.
  8. FutureTrackStar

    FutureTrackStar Registered Member

    1. Jesus said He would come again to rule in peace.

    2. Jesus will unite His followers

    3. The fact that His followers sinned has no relevance, because all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

    4. see 3

    5. Who is Balaam? Could he have been referring to the antichrist, or the beast, from the book of Revelations?

    6. It would only be a violation if He was not, in fact, God. You are begging the question.

    7. I would say He was famous because He rose from the grave.

    8. He was completely Human... and completely God. It's called the hypostatic union.

    9. see 3

    10. We don't worship crucifixion, we rejoice in His death AND resurrection, because both are necessary. We do not worship a "gun".

    11. Mankind sinned. God punishes sin. Therefore, God must punish man. Would you like to be punished for your sins?

    12. Isn't this list supposed to prove this point?

    13. No we don't. We say none are righteous except Jesus (aka God).

    14. see 3. Not all of us do that.

    15. Ok. Are you claiming that you have never sinned? The point is that you HAVE sinned, just as we all have, and we all need saving.

    16. Can I see a reference?

    17. When did Christians say that the Jews will be punished forever?

    18. I think that is debatable, but its quite beside the point.

    19. No we don't. God is three in one. (p.s. how do you explain the language of plurality used quite often in the OT to describe God?)

    20. Unless the Father is one with the Son.

    21. see 3.

    22. Again beside the point. see 3?

    23. Wrong, you have not been perfectly loyal. The abomination of man is that he believes that he is righteous.

    24. No we don't. see 3.

    25. see 3.

    26. see 3.

    27. see 3. This is beside the point. Jesus fulfilled the law.

    28. No we don't. May I see a reference?

    29. what? This is, again, beside the point.

    30. Whaaaat? May I see a reference? Btw, this assumes Jesus was not God, and thus begs the question.

    31. I agree.

    32. Yes He was. He was born of Mary, who was in the line of David.

    33. Jesus did not take the Lord's name in vain.

    34. No, John was not His teacher.

    35. No we don't. And no, she wasn't the only one. It was written that He appeared to over 500 people. Besides, how could Mary Magdalene single-handedly convince thousands of Jews that Christ rose from the grave, when His grave was literally a 5 minute walk away? They would have dismissed her as a crazy person.

    36. I agree.

    37. see 3.

    38. Begs the question.

    39. Begs the question.

    40. Begs the question.

    41. Jesus has been accepted by people from all nations, but not by all people.

    42. Ok.

    43. Jesus said He will come again.

    44. Jesus died AND rose again, so that we could have life.

    I g2g, I'll get the rest later.
  9. Wade8813

    Wade8813 Registered Member

    Well, it looks like FTS beat me to it, but I'll handle the last few he didn't get to

    I'm pretty sure logic says that a man that claims to be God is a liar, unless He's actually God.

    I don't remember any verses saying the Messiah could only come once. Could you site the passage? (Although technically, some Christians would argue that Jesus won't actually be on Earth the second time, but rather we'll meet up with him in the air).

    Unless, of course, that will be covered during Jesus' second coming.

    What rules did Jesus not keep?

    Jesus wasn't being punished - He voluntarily gave his life.

    Christians sure seem to think there have been Christian prophets, and that God promised things to them. Christians believe they are chosen, but not in the sense that the Jews are. Christians acknowledge that the Jews are God's chosen people, and are unique in that regard (but that doesn't necessarily mean that Jews are right and Christians are wrong. There are numerous examples of when the Jews were wrong - just look at the book of Judges).
    Last edited: May 20, 2010
    idisrsly likes this.
  10. Alex37

    Alex37 Registered Member

    What gave him the legitimacy to say it? He didn't prove that he was god, because he wasn't, he was just a normal human, ONLY his followers claimed to have seen his tricks, so really saying that he was god, without a proof, means nothing. Also, a person can't be God.

    The real Messiah is will unite the Jewish people, not others.

    The Messiah, and of course God, cannot sin. Also, the sins of the Roman empire, the destruction of the Holy Temple, the murder and torture of many Jews, are not something that is forgetable.

    Actually no, point four is not connected to point three, because here I'm talking about the results of his actions, and not about the sins themselves as mentioned in point three.

    Balaam was a gentile prophet, the main stories about him are that he was sent by Israel's enemies to curse the Israelites three times, but every time he gave them a blessing instead. And he was able to speak with God's angel through his donkey, that refused to move when it saw the angel.

    And no, he meant to Jesus, and for that, all of what Jesus' followers said cannot be trusted, for they have followed the false Messiah. The false messiah can only come before the Messiah, and since Jesus was the first to claim that he's god's son, he must be the false one. The beast, the anti-Christ, they don't exist, as they are nothing but the imagination of a false messiah's followers, who didn't study the Tanakh properly.

    Of course he wasn't God. He was Yeshu'a from Nazareth, the son of some woman called Miriam, and his death proved that he was completely human, so no, he can't claim to be God, because he wasn't. And again, he must prove that he was god, and if he can't, he's a liar.

    Who saw it? Only one woman - who was one of his followers, may be his wife, and was too emotional to be trusted, she wasn't neutral.

    How can you compare God and a human? Humans are absolutely zero compared to the all knowing all-mighty infinite end-lees God. Saying that God needed to "become" human in order to prove something is an absurd. Jesus clearly said things that are against the rules of the real God (like "Sabbath was created for men, not men for Sabbath", which is a sentence violating the commandment of remember the Sabbath day and keep it Holy), so saying that the infinite God, changed his form into a form of a simple human, and told things against his own rules, and then died, and the only one who claim to have seen him again was his follower / wife (she obviously had emotional feelings about him), cannot make sense. It's "God' or "not God" in simple words.

    If the people who claim that they follow God, but really follow a normal human, break one (or much more in tis case) of the ten commandments, rules which they say that they respect, and don't even bother to fix their mistake (the Christians, if they believe that Jesus was god, must throw away all of Jesus' pictures and statues, in order to not have any picture or a satue, as said in the ten commandments), they can't be real followers of The God Of Israel.

    If the Christians want to believe in Jesus as a god, fine. If they want to believe in The God Of Israel, exellent. But they can't claim that the same God that is worshiped by the Jews is Jesus, because God and Jesus are not the same.

    Why do the Christians believe that the Cross is a holy simbol? You put it on your Churches, you sometimes wear it, but you forget that it killed that man who you believe was god. And another absurd is, you can't be happy that he died, because you believe he was god (The Real God won't come to Earth in order to die), but you can't be sad that he died, because you believe that it was his plan. Also, the woman who had claimed that she saw him, claimed that it was a vision, and not the actuall person.

    Also, in the Gospel of Barnabas, it was Judas who was crucified and not Jesus. It has many clues in other gospels too.

    Of course. God knows and sees all, if I did something wrong, I can't get a way with it, when it comes to God. God always said that he gives punishments to people (while they're alive, in most cases), and these people are only the Jews and not all of humanity (there are only seven rules that gentiles should follow), so no, God will not come to Earth in order to DIE for the GENTILES' sins, he will just punish the gentiles, or ignore them, and anyway the Jews were very religious during Jesus' times (the Jews were very united until Jesus' followers came and attacked them), so the idea of a god dying in order to ignore sins that don't exist anymore, doesn't make any sense.

    Yes, but it is important to mention that the whole idea of someone claims to be something that he isn't, is already a reason not believe him.

    You're just wrong, you call the people who you worship "saints", and Jesus was neither God nor a righteous person, so praying to people who are not God, and saying that their way is righteous, when it's clearly not, while ignoring that the real rigtheous people were only from the Israelites, is not coming together with God's rules.

    So you admit that you don't worship God properly? So how can you say that your religion is right?

    I don't claim that I have never sinned, but why is it so obvious that I did? A man can live without sinning, that's not impossible. If one makes a sin, he must be somehow punished for that, he doesn't need to be saved. Truth hurts - you did something wrong, you need pay for it (wether it is by a punishment from God, or from justice systems, or by making a sacrifice at the Holy Temple), don't wait for someone to come and save, and surely God won't "save" you from his own rules.

    Deuteronomy 30:1-10 - This is what will lead to the Messiah.
    Isaiah 11:6-9 - This is what will happen before his arival.
    Isaiah 25:8. - This is what the Messiah will do.

    Jesus didn't do all these things, and the times which are described are clearly not his times or before them.

    The Christians say that God left the Jewish people, and chose the Christians instead, and because the Christians believe that Jews killed Jesus, they believe that god punished the Jews forever. The modern state of Israel is a proof that the Christians are wrong.

    The point is, the whole belief in eternal Heaven / Hell is an absurd, it doesn't appear in the Tanakh, and the righteous people will return to be alive when the Messiah will come, and the whole idea of Heaven / Hell is against the idea of Reincarnation, that makes much more sense than Haven / Hell.

    The language of plurality is used, because in Hebrew there is no difference between "much" and "many", and the word "Elohim" (God אלוהים) is on the same level of the wrod "Maim" (water מים), as both are reffered to as plural since they cannot be counted; you can't count water, just as you can't count the infinite God. The language doesn't change the fact that there is only one God.

    What? Are you and your father the same person? Since when do the fathers and the sons are the same people? Your statment doesn't make any sense.

    No, it has nothing to do with point three. My point is that Christians fight each other's nations, while Jews always stay the same nation, so the Christians are not united at all, which proves that they don't follow a real messiah, and they also don't follow the real God of Israel, who chose one nation to be his chosen nation.

    That's not beside the point, and again, has nothing to do with point three, the point is that if the Christians were really following God's rules, they were protecting Synagogues, at least as good as Churches are protected in Israel.

    We are loyal. There are 613 Mitzvot (plural of Mitzvah: something God commanded to do or to avoid), do you follow them? No. Why? Because you see the Tanakh as alegorical, while we actually follow it. For that reason, Judaism is the loyal religion, unlike Christianity.

    Again, nothing to do with point three. You pray to people who you call "saints". That is forbidden. You should only pray to God.

    Again, it has nothing to do with point three. So, do you admit that Christmas is wrong, and should not be celebrated as it is a Pagan celebration?

    You must ask yourself, do you want to follow sinners who followed a sinner? Also, those Christian-Jews sinners never admited that they did something wrong, so how can you follow people who don't even try to fix their own problems, and don't know how? And by pointing me to point three, you say that "some people do sins", which means, you admit that Christianity and the Christian leaders are a sin.

    No point three, not beside the point, and Jesus didn't bring back the Jewish children to their parents, so he didn't "fulfill" any law.

    Yes you do. Read this please:

    "The book The Sins of the Scripture, by John Shelby Spong, investigates the possibility that early Christians compiled the Judas story from three Old Testament Jewish betrayal stories. He writes, "...the act of betrayal by a member of the twelve disciples is not found in the earliest Christian writings. Judas is first placed into the Christian story by Gospel of Mark (3:19), who wrote in the early years of the eighth decade of the Common Era". He points out that some of Gospels, after the Crucifixion, refer to the number of Disciples as "Twelve", as if Judas were still among them. He compares the three conflicting descriptions of Judas's death - hanging, leaping into a pit, and disemboweling, with three Old Testament betrayals followed by similar suicides.
    Spong's conclusion is that early Bible authors, after the First Jewish-Roman War, sought to distance themselves from Rome's enemies. They augmented the Gospels with a story of a disciple, personified in Judas as the Jewish state, who either betrayed or handed-over Jesus to his Roman crucifiers. Spong identifies this augmentation with the origin of modern Anti-Semitism.
    Jewish scholar Hyam Maccoby, espousing a purely mythological view of Jesus, suggests that in the New Testament, the name "Judas" was constructed as an attack on the Judaeans or on the Judaean religious establishment held responsible for executing Christ.[47] The English word "Jew" is derived from the Latin Iudaeus, which, like the Greek Ιουδαίος (Ioudaios), could also mean "Judaean".
    "Judas The Beloved Disciple Remembered" by William E. McClintic portrays Judas in a positive light. McClintic not only presents Judas as the "beloved disciple", but also as a scribe and author of the "Q" document, the "Apostles Creed" and true writer of the "John Gospel". McClintic presents Judas as the source of most of the stories about Jesus in the Gospels from the birth of Jesus, his education, his teachings and ministry to the trial, Crucifixion and Resurrection."

    It is connected to the point, to the one which I mentioned before (28).

    You don't even need a source - John the Baptist was called that way, because he invented Baptism, right? The whole idea of using water with the belief that water can be used in order to be forgiven for the sins - that's John's idea, so further, the whole idea of doing something, not for God, in order to be forgiven for your actions, came from John; Jesus stole this idea, and today, even though Christianity is based on John the Baptist's idea, it bases its ideas on the belief that Jesus created these ideas and not John. That is what is called "a theft of an idea", which is against the ten commandments.

    Well at least something.

    Mary wasn't from King David's family line, what makes you think that way?

    He claimed that he was god even though he wasn't, he spoke against God's rules, and may be he actually said the literal name of God (I'm not even going to write it, we replace it with "Adonai" - "my masters אדוני", read why it's plural in point 19, and "HaShem השם" - "the name", and "HaKadosh Baruch Hu" - הקדוש ברוך הוא / קב"ה, meaning "The Holy [One] Blessed He Is"), and since he made people think that he was god, even though he wasn't, it clearly means that he spoke God's name in vain.

    John was his teacher, as he taught him the idea of Baptism. Jesus, who acted as if the idea of Baptism was his, stole John's idea.

    Well now you're just in denial - it was claimed many times by many Christians that she was a whore. Who are these 500 people? I think it's a fake number, that was later added in order to minimize her importance. It was claimed that Jesus' grave was found three days after Jesus' death without his body. Only after that, Mary claimed that she saw him - it was just her emotional wish. And, many Jews did thought that all of these "early Christians" were crazy, as the Christians didn't have any proof of their belief, and didn't follow Judaism properly (Jesus was a false messiah and his ways were false), and because Mary wasn't an important woman, may be she actually was a whore, and also the rest of the followers weren't important or righteous. Christianity was a cult, and when the cult leader Jesus died, the cult members didn't want realize that the cult was false and were sad for the cult leader's death, so after they were given a (false) reason to believe that the leader of the cult is still alive, they started the religion called "Christianity".

    Good another agreement.

    You just use "point 3" to ignore details of the argument, but in any case, the fact that you justify all of Christianity's actions by saying "people are allowed to sin" is making you look irrational, because Christianity's idea is both ignoring and avoiding some sins, so saying "it happened, but so what" is not an excuse for the fact that if Christianity was a religion that was given by a real messiah, there were no crimes done in the name of it, at least not the kind of crimes that were done in the name of Christianity, which is a false religion.

    If Jesus was the messiah, he was giving the Jewish nation a good name, instead of ruining it and causing much more anti-Semitism.

    God created the world, and gave us many miracles. Jesus' actions were only seen special by the 12 people who had emotional connections with him. He didn't do the miracles that the real Messiah will do when he will come.

    By all Jewish traditions, and I'm talking about the ones that existed before Christianity, the Messiah will be a Jew who keeps the Jewish tradtions. Jesus wasn't that kind of a Jew, he was a sinner, so he wasn't the messiah.

    The reason why Jesus is known to people from many nations (not neccerily all nations), is because of the Roman empire and the Western occupiers who went to every place in the world to convert people to Christianity. Which is another example that explains why I said that Jesus became known because of the power of the swrod, and not because of his ideas.

    The real Messiah will be immidietly accepted by ALL of the NATIONS, meaning every goverment (Monarchs, president offices, prime-minister offices, etc) will recognize the real Messiah, who is not Jesus, and the real Messiah will immidietly become the king of the nations, without even using any power, as he will come when there will be peace.

    So you do understand that the Holy Temple will be rebuilt before or during the time when the real Messiah will come, right?

    He lied, he wasn't righteous or even good when he was alive, so he won't return to life when the real Messiah will come.

    No, the fact that he died proves that he wasn't god, and the fact that people believe that he came back to life, and believe that their life is nothing without him, proves what a cult leader was he.

    But God is not a man, God is everything. We come to the question again - why, even though he failed at every messiah-test that the real Messiah will not fail at, people still think that the human who was called Jesus was god?

    It is said that the real Messiah will come when there will be peace in the world, when people won't work hard anymore, etc, so a person who claimed that he was the messiah before the time of the global peace, was obviously lying. When the real Messiah will come, he will immidietly be accepted by all nations, something that didn't happen when the false messiah Jesus was alive. We believe that the Messiah is only supposed to come once, since it is said that he will unite the world the first moment he will come, so there won't be any use of him after that, which means that if he'll die, he probably won't return anymore, because he won't be needed (he won't be needed, because he's the Messiah, and not God).

    As explained at the point above (46), the Messiah is only supposed to come once, do his job, and that's it. If a person claimed to be the Messiah, but didn't do the job of the Messiah during his life, and didn't have the characters of the Messiah, that means that he lied and wasn't the Messiah. There is no sense in second coming - one day someone might claim that he's Jesus, people might believe him, and then he'll die. So what will his followers say? Of rourse - third coming. You see what an absurd it is?

    The Sabbath, the rule of "there is only one God", the rule that a person is not allowed to be worshiped as God, the rule of not stealing someone's ideas, the rule of not turning other people into sinners, the rule of speaking God's name in vain, the rule of respecting the father and the mother, the rule of practicing the Torah, he suggested that people will give ALL of their property to poor people,... He broke enough rules. Even breaking one single rule is enough, because the real Messiah won't do any sins, at least not from the kind that Jesus have done. Jesus' sins prove that he wasn't divine.

    He didn't give his life, he was executed. The real Messiah will first be recognized as a Messiah, and only later, when the world will be peaceful, he might die. If you want to know wether someone is the Messiah or not, your only way of knowing it is by his actions and their results. Jesus didn't bring the dead back to life, and didn't have the characters of the Messiah, so he wasn't the Messiah. People must accept it.

    The Christians believe that Jesus was god, but I'm talking about prophets who connected with the real God, the God Of Israel. If Jesus didn't exist, the whole idea of Christianity didn't exist, and since Jesus was a false Messiah, it makes Christianity a false religion, and the fact is, non of the Christian prophets was ever proved right. The Christians, who believe that God chose them in some way, don't understand that these were the Christians who decided to create a religion based on the Christian cult, and not God. Jesus, was a typical cult leader - he didn't say anything about what will happen to his ideas after his death, he probably didn't believe that he is even able to die, he was rude, he was in love with himself and that made him think that he's a god, and if not Mary, this cult was already gone, since Mary was the first and last person who claimed that she saw Jesus after he died. God didn't promise anything to the Christians, the Christians are those who decided that they are better than other cults in Israel, and actually every cult thought that way, but only the ones that survived are here to tell their own story. I'm not trying to offent anyone here, but I must say that "religions" which believe in one person (the religion's leader) as the base of the whole religion, are really large organized cults. Christianity is just a good example of such a large cult. Since the Christians both worship Jesus as their leader and as their god, it really makes sense that the Christians are not a chosen people, but a large cult-religion. You can't say the same thing about religions such as Judaism, the ancient Egyptian religion, the Norse religion, the Greek religion, the Slavic religion, the Native-American religion, others, but you surely can say that Christianity is close to a cult more than to a religion, even though it's big.

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