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GOP new anti-abortion platform

Hilander

Free Spirit
Staff member
V.I.P.
Despite the tremendous pressure on the Republican party following Rep. Todd Akin’s (R-MO) comments about “legitimate rape,” supposedly natural contraception and abortion, CNN reported last night that the Republican platform to be affirmed at the convention last week will contain a call for a so-called “personhood” amendment to the Constitution that is similar to Akin’s 2009 anti-abortion legislation with presumptive VP nominee Paul Ryan (R-WI). Like the Akin-Ryan bill, the “personhood” amendment envisioned by the GOP platform would contain no exceptions to its bans on abortion, even for rape or incest.

The 5 countries the GOP would model U.S. abortion law on with its new anti-abortion platform
Even Saudi Arabia allows abortions to save the mothers life. If they pass such a strict bill, which Romney even isn't for, I think you will see the return of back alley abortions. Hopefully one of the women getting such an abortion will not be related to these people.

Honestly I don't know if I could get an abortion even to save my life but I think I should have that choice.

Here's another link about the same story.

G.O.P. Approves Strict Anti-Abortion Language in Party Platform
 

wooly

I am the woolrus
Were it to pass, it could also criminalize everything from IUDs and oral contraceptives to IVF and stem cell research — and it wouldn’t have an exception for the life or health of the mother.
Insanity. Absolute insanity. This si so incredibly backwards it's ridiculous.

It's easy to look at Sharia Law countries and say "isn't it awful how Islam oppresses women?". Well maybe the republicans supporting this law should take a look in the mirror. Much like certain Islamic states, they are using their religion to VERY cruelly oppress women.

And of course it isn't the religion's fault. It's the people who have warped religion and used it to support their own fucked up agendas.

Edit: and also, i think it's important to mention that abortion laws don't even prevent abortion, they just make it dangerous for women. A recent enough study found that abortion rates were actually HIGHER in countries with restrictive legislation when it comes to abortion, and the only difference being that many of these abortions are extremely unsafe for the mother Higher abortion rates where it's illegal in other countries ? USATODAY.com
 
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SmilinSilhouette

Registered Member
Some people believe life begins at conception, when the sperm fertilizes the egg. Given that belief wouldn't they want to defend the life that cannot defend itself?
 

CaptainObvious

Son of Liberty
V.I.P.
If you believe that life begins at conception, that is when a woman is pregnant with child, and you wish to defend that life that cannot defend itself, how is being against a woman killing that life oppressing them? By that logic if I want to prosecute those who kills others then I'm oppressing murderers.
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And by the way I know people who are not religious that are against abortion, jumping to the "fucked up religious agendas" is a logical fallacy.
 
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wooly

I am the woolrus
If you believe that life begins at conception, that is when a woman is pregnant with child, and you wish to defend that life that cannot defend itself, how is being against a woman killing that life oppressing them? By that logic if I want to prosecute those who kills others then I'm oppressing murderers.
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And by the way I know people who are not religious that are against abortion, jumping to the "fucked up religious agendas" is a logical fallacy.
Firstly, i CLEARLY didn't say "fucked up religious agendas". As i said, this isn't the fault of religion. It's the fault of the people pushing these laws, and their OWN 'fucked up agendas' (which they are, but i'll get into that later). I also know someone who isn't religious and for a long time was very anti-abortion (although he did come from an very catholic family, so that could have definitely been an influence on some of his world views), but to deny the STRONG correlation and relationship between the anti-abortion campaign and religion is just just being fallacious. And religion is often used in the discourse of those who would try to outlaw abortion. Anti-abortion policies aren't just associated with the 'right' in U.S. society, it is associated with the "christian right" because there is, the vast vast majority of the time, a link and an influence.

But anyway, to your main question - "how is being against a woman killing that life oppressing them?".

Hypothetical situation - a young woman is raped by her uncle. She gets pregnant. However, not only is the baby the product of the extremely traumatic event that is incestuous rape, but it is also a complicated pregnancy, and the baby is seriously threatening the well being, and even threatening the LIFE of the mother. This law basically says "Shut up woman, your psychological well being and physical health doesn't matter. You have absolutely NO choice but to have that baby". Can you seriously pretend that such a law isn't oppressive to women??? Really???

And again, this is ALL besides the fact that as stated earlier, laws preventing abortion do not prevent abortion. Abortion will still happen, but they will just be turned from a very safe procedure for women to a very unsafe one.
 

CaptainObvious

Son of Liberty
V.I.P.
Ah you're right, WARPED religion. My bad. I'm not denying there is a correlation between the two, I never said that. What I do believe however is you can't make a direct causal connection.

I'm not pretending anything, nor am I opining on the issue. All I'm saying is IF one believes a baby is a person, and it's not crazy to think so, I'm mean it's not a tree or a pencil, then denying someone the "right" to kill that person is not oppressing them.

Without a crystal ball I have no idea whether there will be fewer abortions. What I do know is it would not be legal and people will be prosecuted. Whether people do or do not engage in certain behavior is irrelevant towards whether it should be legal or not.
 
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SmilinSilhouette

Registered Member
If we are to get into hypothetical situations, let's say you or your significant other is pergnant with a child you want. It is late into the pregnancy and the baby's mother is assaulted resulting in the death of the unborn child. Was your baby murdered or was that just no big deal because it wasn't a "person" yet?
 
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MenInTights

not a plastic bag
The Democrat platform supports (or did support until recently) late term abortions. Which most people would say is just pure evil. I just bring it up because the only solution on abortion is a compromise between the 2 sides. I don't know what that solution is. Maybe let states decide or only legal during 1st trimester after counseling.

Part of negotiating is taking a stance on an issue that you know you will never get, so maybe that's part of the reason for the 2 positions. Of course part of fundraising is taking positions that excite your base, so it all could be about money. I generally agree that all abortion should be illegal, but I'm not going to donate any money to the RNC so, it didn't work on me.
 

wooly

I am the woolrus
Ah you're right, WARPED religion. My bad. I'm not denying there is a correlation between the two, I never said that. What I do believe however is you can't make a direct causal connection.
Ah, no problem! Sorry for jumping so heavily on that misread :p

I'm not pretending anything, nor am I opining on the issue. All I'm saying is IF one believes a baby is a person, and it's not crazy to think so, I'm mean it's not a tree or a pencil, then denying someone the "right" to kill that person is not oppressing them.
But the mother has rights too, and when the law is potentially putting her life in danger because she isn't as "important" as the child, and she doesn't even have a choice in the matter, she is definitely being oppressed. This law could prevent women from saving their own lives!

I mean look, i'm very, very pro-choice. But even i understand mentality, incredibly strongly disagree with, but understand the mentality regardless of the whole not allowing abortions for rape/incest etc. As incredibly wrong and cruel and oppressive as i think it may be, i get it that certain people see the baby as a person and see it as murder.

But what i don't understand is how ANYBODY can defend forcing a woman to have a baby which could kill her. Because when you allow this, the argument of "every life is precious" just doesn't hold up anymore!! This law puts the mothers life as worthless, and is only aimed at preventing abortion no matter what the cost. THAT doesn't stem from a desire to "protect life", that stems from a desire to make sure that there is no compromise whatsoever on the abortion issue.

It's denying women their natural right to health. It's pro-life gone too far. It's an incredibly savage law.

Without a crystal ball I have no idea whether there will be fewer abortions. What I do know is it would not be legal and people will be prosecuted. Whether people do or do not engage in certain behavior is irrelevant towards whether it should be legal or not.
You don't need a crystal ball, you have research and statistics. There has been lots of research that shows the ineffectiveness of laws preventing abortion, including that recent enough one i posted earlier and another quite recent report from the UN calling for abortion rights, as outlawing abortion is both dangerous and ineffective UN report calls for abortion rights

If we are to get into hypothetical situations, let's say you or your significant other is pergnant with a child you want. It is late into the pregnancy and the baby's mother is assaulted resulting in the death of the unborn child. Was your baby murdered or was that just no big deal because it wasn't a "person" yet?
Firstly, just because it's not a person doesn't mean it's "no big deal". Of course that would be emotionally traumatic and the person should be punished for assaulting my pregnant wife. But just because i'd be sad that he killed our unborn child, does not make the child a person. There's no logic there. I'd also be incredibly depressed beyond compare if somebody killed my dog, that doesn't make my dog a person.

Also, the comparison fails because this hypothetical situation is presented in a scenario where both partners are happily having a baby that they both want. As opposed to many situations where having a baby is a cause of great psychological or physical pain and distress for a woman, for a variety of reasons. And also fails because of the fact, in ANY situation, it is obviously not the right of somebody not involved in the unborn child to make any sort of decision or have any influence in it's termination.
 

shelgarr

Registered Member
Discussions of abortion always revolve around the fraction of pregnancies that result from incest or rape. Can we maybe concentrate on the much higher ratio that are just selfish people wanting an easy way out?

Source: ttp://realweb.ifastnet.com/stats.html#arpinct

2. Number of Abortions from Rape and Incest
less than 1% of women who have abortions do so, because of rape or incest (AGI)

A. Rape
•A recent Justice Dept. report returned a result of 170,000 completed rapes plus 140,000 attempted rapes. Nat. Crime Victim Report, US Justice Dept. Aug. 95, R. Bachman
And how many pregnancies result?
•About 1 or 2 for each 1000. This translates into an overall total of 170 to 340 assault rape pregnancies a year in the entire United States.
•A study of 1,000 rape victims, who were treated medically right after the rape, reported no pregnancies. L. Kuchera, "Postcoital Contraception with Diethylstilbestrol," JAMA, October 25, 1971
•In another series of 117 assault rape victims, of whom only 17 were given hormone treatment after the attack, none became pregnant. Everett & Jimerson, "The Rape Victim," 237 OB & GYN, vol. 50, no. 1, July 1977, pp. 88-90
Only one or two out of 1000? Please explain.
There are about 100 million women in the United States old enough to be at risk for assault rape. Let’s use a figure of 200,000 forcible rapes every year. The studies available agree that there are no more than two pregnancies per 1,000 assault rapes.
So much for the numbers. Let’s look at it from another angle and see if that figure makes sense.
•Of these 200,000 women who were raped, one-third were either too old or too young to get pregnant. That leaves 133,000 at risk of pregnancy.
•A woman is capable of being fertilized only three days out of her 30-day month. So divide 133,000 by 10, and 13,300 women remain.
•One-fourth of all women in the United States of child-bearing age have been sterilized. That drops the figure to 10,000.
•Only half of the assailants penetrate her body and/or deposit sperm. Cut it in half again. We are own to 5,000.
•Fifteen percent of men are sterile; that drops the figure to 4,250. Fifteen percent of non-surgically sterilized women are naturally sterile. That reduces the number to 3,600.
•Another 15% are on the pill and/or are already pregnant. Now the figure is 3,070. Now factor in something that all adults know. It takes from five to ten months for an average couple to achieve a pregnancy. Using the smaller figure, to be conservative, divide the 3,000 figure by 5, and the number drops to about 600.

In a healthy, peaceful marriage, the miscarriage rate ranges up to about 15%. In this case, we have incredible emotional trauma. Her body is upset. Even if she conceives, the miscarriage rate is higher than in a more normal pregnancy. If she loses 20% of 600, there are 450 left. Finally, we must factor in one of the most important reasons why a rape victim rarely gets pregnant, and that is psychic trauma. Every woman is aware that stress and emotional factors can alter her menstrual cycle. To get pregnant and stay pregnant, a woman’s body must produce a very sophisticated mix of hormones. Hormone production is controlled by a part of the brain which is easily influenced by emotions. There’s no greater emotional trauma that can be experienced by a woman than an assault rape. This can radically upset her possibility of ovulation, fertilization, implantation and even nurturing of a pregnancy. So what further percentage reduction in pregnancy will this cause? No one really knows, but this factor certainly cuts the last figure by at least 50%, and probably more, leaving a final figure of 225 women pregnant each year, a number that closely matches the 200 found in clinical studies.

What percentage of rape pregnancies are aborted?
Less than half. The balance carry the baby to term. In one study of 37 rape pregnancies, 28 carried to term.
S. Makhorn, in Psychological Aspects of Abortion, Mall & Watts, Univ. Pub. 1979, Pg. 58.

B. Incest
In incest, is pregnancy common?
No. "Considering the prevalence of teenage pregnancies in general, incest treatment programs marvel at the low incidence of pregnancy from incest." Several reports agree at 1% or less.
G. Maloof, "The Consequences of Incest," The Psychological Aspects of Abortion, University Publications of Amer., 1979, p. 74 245
 
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