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Freedom

mister_lister

New Member
In the thread "social vs capital" someone stated that "freedom is a god given right". I do not agree with that statement AND I do not believe that true freedom is ever truly realized with other human beings and especially within the "state".

First of all, which "god" gave freedom? If you say the christian god then you do not know the new testament, wherein the apostle Paul clearly says that "We (christians) are bond slaves to Christ". Additionally, to you have any evidence to support the idea that any "god" or "goddess" exists anywhere outside of books? If books were considered evidence than I could prove the existence of super man and that he can fly based on the account in DC comics. Additionally, personal experience may be good enough for you, but it will never convince another person fully. So, this idea that freedom is a "god" given right is basically illogical, a fallacy of presumption.

As soon as we conceived, our dependence and independence is clearly defined and restricted by nature, individuals, and groups. When we are born we are dependent upon our mother, for every aspect of living. As we grow we become more and more a part of a society, with all of its rules, laws, and restrictions. We are never truely free, in the purest sense of the word. The whole world is collective, with systems of dependencies. Our individual presence on the planet has reaching implications and reactions.

In the state form of government, even in democracies, the rule of Law and of Lawyers define our "Freedoms". In the USA the notions of a bill of rights is touted and proclaimed and fought over. The simple concept of the right to keep and bear arms has been modified, nullified, and revised many times over. You can for instance go on a plane with a pistol unless you are a national or international officer with the proper credentials. So, that concept of a "Freedom" has been basically stripped of all of its previous power, because of Lawyers and Laws and NECESSITY to keep the STATE in ORDER and POWER regulated to the ELITE (i.e. the chosen few VS. the majority).

Here's another example of how a right, defined, and does not equate to true freedom. Freedom of Speech is a much touted and held up ideal. It is an ideal because you are not truely "free" to say what you want. For instance, you are not free to yell "FIRE" in a crowded movie theater. As time goes on this "freedom" has been stripped of its former power and the laws have been revised, edited, added too, by lawyers.

I could go on and on about how the Ideal of Freedom is not truly what most people want or believe in. God did not give us freedom, we have no freedom. It is not a right, it is a legislated privilege within the state system. It can be suspended, revoked, or changed at any time by the decision by the decision of a court, a legislative body, or by the pen of an executive. It can also be determined in the company we keep and what people are willing to tolerate. We are not truly free.
 

shelgarr

Registered Member
With ANY dependence there is not true freedom. So even at birth we are not free.....someone needs to feed, and shelter us. The "God given right to freedom" refers to to how all human are born equal and one should not have the power to govern over the other. Say for instance I and 9 others were of equal age and all had equal access to equal resources. Then one day let's say person #8 restricted me from getting to those resources. They just infringed on my God-given right.
 

SmilinSilhouette

Registered Member
@ Mr: Are you for real? Up to your elbows by your 3rd post? Only time will tell I guess.

Since I was the poster that wrote that quote that started you down this path then I will answer as best I can.

First, god is undefined. When I (me - Smilin') refer to god it has nothing to do with Christian or Jewish or Muslim or any other organized religion. To me the term god refers to the higher power and creator of all things. For me I do not care to try and define god and I dislike religion. For me there is but one god and I do not care to bother with the formalities of a "religion".

Otherwise please read this if you wish to understand the American tradition of natural rights:

Principle 3. Unalienable Rights From God
 

Stegosaurus

Registered Member
First of all, let me welcome you to GF (and ditto on what Smilin said about elbows).

Second, the discussion of "freedom" can often be better discussed once we recognize there are freedoms "from" and freedoms "to," in that there is an interdependence/effect to all actions. (I'll read smilin's link soon). A definition of terms may be in order because, as Lincoln wrote and I'll paraphrase, when one shepherd saves a lamb from a wolf the wolf blames the shepherd for infringing his freedom to eat whereas the lamb praises the shepherd for giving him freedom to not be eaten.
__________

Edit: As far as scientifically defining morals and freedoms, Sam Harris wrote a wonderful book called, "The Moral Landscape" in which the concept of a creator isn't even necessary to discover, define, and recognize shades of morality and thus inalienable freedoms.
 
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CaptainObvious

Embrace the Suck
V.I.P.
In the thread "social vs capital" someone stated that "freedom is a god given right". I do not agree with that statement AND I do not believe that true freedom is ever truly realized with other human beings and especially within the "state".

First of all, which "god" gave freedom? If you say the christian god then you do not know the new testament, wherein the apostle Paul clearly says that "We (christians) are bond slaves to Christ". Additionally, to you have any evidence to support the idea that any "god" or "goddess" exists anywhere outside of books? If books were considered evidence than I could prove the existence of super man and that he can fly based on the account in DC comics. Additionally, personal experience may be good enough for you, but it will never convince another person fully. So, this idea that freedom is a "god" given right is basically illogical, a fallacy of presumption.
The idea that our freedoms are God given derive from the Natural Law theory, your freedoms are granted to you simply by being born. Granted to you by whatever you believe, whether it be God, Allah, the smoke monster from Lost, or whether you are an atheist. It's only considered a fallacy by those that don't understand that.

In the New Testament passage that you site, being "slaves of Christ" doesn't mean you are literally a slave. I can say I am a slave to my coffee in the morning, that doesn't mean I am not free.

As soon as we conceived, our dependence and independence is clearly defined and restricted by nature, individuals, and groups. When we are born we are dependent upon our mother, for every aspect of living. As we grow we become more and more a part of a society, with all of its rules, laws, and restrictions. We are never truely free, in the purest sense of the word. The whole world is collective, with systems of dependencies. Our individual presence on the planet has reaching implications and reactions.

In the state form of government, even in democracies, the rule of Law and of Lawyers define our "Freedoms". In the USA the notions of a bill of rights is touted and proclaimed and fought over. The simple concept of the right to keep and bear arms has been modified, nullified, and revised many times over. You can for instance go on a plane with a pistol unless you are a national or international officer with the proper credentials. So, that concept of a "Freedom" has been basically stripped of all of its previous power, because of Lawyers and Laws and NECESSITY to keep the STATE in ORDER and POWER regulated to the ELITE (i.e. the chosen few VS. the majority).
The idea of Natural Law derives from John Locke's theory that we are granted certain rights, endowed by our Creator (again, whomever you believe your Creator is) and among those rights, the right to life, liberty, and the right to own property. Having laws and rules that we must conform to doesn't take away any of those rights, but defines what our rights are.

I don't think you understand what the bill of rights do. They specifically enumerate what rights we have that are protected against the government. They are restictions, but not as you imagine, but restrictions the government has in dealing with its citizens. Restictions granted to us simply by being born.

Here's another example of how a right, defined, and does not equate to true freedom. Freedom of Speech is a much touted and held up ideal. It is an ideal because you are not truely "free" to say what you want. For instance, you are not free to yell "FIRE" in a crowded movie theater. As time goes on this "freedom" has been stripped of its former power and the laws have been revised, edited, added too, by lawyers.
That still doesn't mean you are not free. Yelling "FIRE" in a crowded movie theatre not only infringes on the rights of the other theatre patrons, but on the private property rights of the theater owner. Your examples are a fallacy.

I could go on and on about how the Ideal of Freedom is not truly what most people want or believe in. God did not give us freedom, we have no freedom. It is not a right, it is a legislated privilege within the state system. It can be suspended, revoked, or changed at any time by the decision by the decision of a court, a legislative body, or by the pen of an executive. It can also be determined in the company we keep and what people are willing to tolerate. We are not truly free.
We have no freedoms? Really? So all those freedoms specifically written out in the bill of rights are just mumbo jumbo bullshit? Have you ever even read the bill of rights and any accompanying case law?
 

Wade8813

Registered Member
First of all, which "god" gave freedom? If you say the christian god then you do not know the new testament, wherein the apostle Paul clearly says that "We (christians) are bond slaves to Christ". Additionally, to you have any evidence to support the idea that any "god" or "goddess" exists anywhere outside of books? If books were considered evidence than I could prove the existence of super man and that he can fly based on the account in DC comics. Additionally, personal experience may be good enough for you, but it will never convince another person fully. So, this idea that freedom is a "god" given right is basically illogical, a fallacy of presumption.
The term "God given right" is used to mean that it's universal and nobody can take it away. It really doesn't have anything to do with a God that may or may not exist. It's a poetic turn of phrase.

The verse about being bond slaves to Christ has absolutely nothing to do with this topic. And yes, there is some evidence for God. But those are topics for another thread since they have nothing to do with this thread.

As soon as we conceived, our dependence and independence is clearly defined and restricted by nature, individuals, and groups. When we are born we are dependent upon our mother, for every aspect of living. As we grow we become more and more a part of a society, with all of its rules, laws, and restrictions. We are never truely free, in the purest sense of the word. The whole world is collective, with systems of dependencies. Our individual presence on the planet has reaching implications and reactions.
So? Nobody's arguing that someone has complete, unrestricted freedom. That's impossible. But that doesn't mean we don't have any freedom at all.

In the state form of government, even in democracies, the rule of Law and of Lawyers define our "Freedoms". In the USA the notions of a bill of rights is touted and proclaimed and fought over. The simple concept of the right to keep and bear arms has been modified, nullified, and revised many times over. You can for instance go on a plane with a pistol unless you are a national or international officer with the proper credentials. So, that concept of a "Freedom" has been basically stripped of all of its previous power, because of Lawyers and Laws and NECESSITY to keep the STATE in ORDER and POWER regulated to the ELITE (i.e. the chosen few VS. the majority).
The fact that you can't take a firearm on an airplane has no relevance on whether or not you have a right to bear arms.

Here's another example of how a right, defined, and does not equate to true freedom. Freedom of Speech is a much touted and held up ideal. It is an ideal because you are not truely "free" to say what you want. For instance, you are not free to yell "FIRE" in a crowded movie theater. As time goes on this "freedom" has been stripped of its former power and the laws have been revised, edited, added too, by lawyers.
I could go on and on about how the Ideal of Freedom is not truly what most people want or believe in. God did not give us freedom, we have no freedom. It is not a right, it is a legislated privilege within the state system. It can be suspended, revoked, or changed at any time by the decision by the decision of a court, a legislative body, or by the pen of an executive. It can also be determined in the company we keep and what people are willing to tolerate. We are not truly free.
Again, you seem to be confusing freedom with absolute freedom.

Freedom has never been about being able to do whatever I feel like. This isn't freedom being stripped - it's always been that way.

Freedom doesn't mean carte blanch to do whatever you want.
 

C-Mach

Registered Member
Freedom is not granted to one when he is born. Freedom must be fought for, or maintained if already in place. Freedom is not granted by a god, but by force.
 

Kazmarov

For a Free Scotland
Freedom is an inalienable, natural right that exists above all else. It can be blocked but it is never not the right of a citizen that lives justly.

I don't think it descends from a deity, but I do think it exists above normal things, such as contracts.
 
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