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France - The final step to ban Burka

Ilus_Unistus

Registered Member
I should have been more specific, the question I addressed was that Men or more specifically husbands forced women to wear these Burqas against their will as a show of inequality or form of submission when this is not the case. It is strictly a matter of culture and or religion and is done out of respect and show of submission to Allah (not men as most cases show) by women. This was the topic which I could not find one single recorded case that men or husbands forced their wives to wear this, only some anti-Muslim media propaganda.

The Media has put a spin on this, as I said in my earlier post this is not ONLY about Burqas, bans on large Christian crosses and Jewish Skullcaps is also a part of this legislature with which no one seems concerned with...
 
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Wade8813

Registered Member
I should have been more specific, the question I addressed was that Men or more specifically husbands forced women to wear these Burqas against their will as a show of inequality or form of submission when this is not the case. It is strictly a matter of culture and or religion and is done out of respect and show of submission to Allah (not men) by women. This was the topic which I could not find one single recorded case that men or husbands forced their wives to wear this, only some anti-Muslim media propaganda.
In the case of the Indian students, it's clear that the women don't want to, and there are people trying to force them to. I don't think it really matters if it's their husbands forcing the issue, or someone else - they don't want to do it.

The Media has put a spin on this, as I said in my earlier post this is not ONLY about Burqas, bans on large Christian crosses and Jewish Skullcaps is also a part of this legislature with which no one seems concerned with...
Do you have any links to show that?
 

EllyDicious

made of AMBIGUITY
V.I.P.
Muslim woman forced to wear Berqa's by men?: Absolutely NOT. .
No one is saying that Burka is worn by force. But, IN CASE men force women to wear it by force[after the law comes into power], the formers will be fined.
I'm sure Muslim men won't be satisfied about this and there will be many religion-fanatics who will accept to pay the fines and get jailed as long as their women don't give up on the Burka.
Wade said:
Often at work I've asked had trouble identifying customers while looking at their ID and comparing it to them, and that was only with moderate facial hair. A guy who grows out a giant beard and sunglasses is pretty much completely unrecognizable if he the shaves it off.
That's a personal problem you have there. From my personal experience, I've never had problem recognizing people after they've shaved/grown the facial hair. I've been able to recognize people I hadn't met for years, despite their body changes.
It comes down to how able you are to remember the form of their face, despite the changes they have done.

Would France make it illegal if some 6 year old kid wanted to wear their Halloween mask every day?
Yes, because a 6 year old kid is not allowed to go to school with a Halloween mask and they can't use it in any other institution/places. They use it just for fun and that's what makes the difference.
While the Burka is used everywhere because that's what a woman's life is about [in those cultures].
 
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Wade8813

Registered Member
No one is saying that Burka is worn by force. But, IN CASE men force women to wear it by force[after the law comes into power], the formers will be fined.

I'm sure Muslim men won't be satisfied about this and there will be many religion-fanatics who will accept to pay the fines and get jailed as long as their women don't give up on the Burka.
From what I can tell, women will be fined under this law, even if they want to wear it.

That's a personal problem you have there. From my personal experience, I've never had problem recognizing people after they've shaved/grown the facial hair. I've been able to recognize people I had never met for yours, despite their body changes.
It comes down to how able you are to remember the form of their face, despite the changes they have done.


You think you could recognize this guy if he shaved and took off his sunglasses? I doubt it...

Yes, because a 6 year old kid is not allowed to go to school with a Halloween mask and they can't use it in any other institution/places. They use it just for fun and that's what makes the difference.
While the Burka is used everywhere because that's what a woman's life is about [in those cultures].
If it's a security issue, than nobody should be able to wear ski masks/Halloween masks, etc. If it's a sexism issue, what about women who WANT to wear it?
 

EllyDicious

made of AMBIGUITY
V.I.P.
From what I can tell, women will be fined under this law, even if they want to wear it.
Of course they will be fined, whether they want to wear it or not it doesn't matter. If they go against the law [willingly or not], someone will be faulty and will have to pay for it.



You think you could recognize this guy if he shaved and took off his sunglasses? I doubt it...
Well, it's hard to recognize him but I can see the shape of his lips which distinguishes him from the others. If he committed a crime and I had to recognize him without his facial hair/sunglasses/hat, I'd make sure to look at his lips, which clearly make a difference.

If it's a security issue, than nobody should be able to wear ski masks/Halloween masks, etc.
Why not? You don't see anybody walking down the street with ski masks or Halloween masks, on daily basis..
They use these masks in the appropriate places [when skiing/celebrating]. So there is no reason for them to not be allowed to wear those masks. That's why, being worn temporarily makes a difference. Because if worn on daily basis with no reason, they would become doubtful. [It's like going to the supermarket with the Halloween/ski mask.] Wouldn't you look at them weirdly and start to wonder why?
 
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MisterT

Registered Member
I'm 100% behind this.

When going to an islamic country you have to respect their laws i.e ladies cover up and when entering a mosque (as a tourist) cover your head with a scarf.

As they do it other countries should be allowed to do it to them IMO
 

Ilus_Unistus

Registered Member
Do you have any links to show that?
I was about to post the links Wade, but just noticed they are from a 2004 law France passed about displaying religion in schools where burqa's, crosses and skullcaps were banned in and around schools. Sorry, I should have read the date more closely!! lol.

This topic is about ONLY the Muslim Burqa's (veils or whatever you may wish to call them) covering the face of Muslim women.

I still do not agree with the law as it is targeted at one religion/culture and nothing else like ski mask's or people who wear scarfs past their nose or many other face concealing garments. It seems completely aimed at Muslims in a country who's law it is for FREEDOM OF RELIGION. Change this law if they wish to do away with the Burqa, make it fair for any religion as Estonia does, or make the law to include ANY face concealing garments, not just a religious/cultural one.
------
I'm 100% behind this.

When going to an islamic country you have to respect their laws i.e ladies cover up and when entering a mosque (as a tourist) cover your head with a scarf.

As they do it other countries should be allowed to do it to them IMO

Respect is the key word and the one you show little of. If you were Christian would it be respectful to walk into a church on Sunday wearing a demon or devil suit? or wearing a shirt promoting devil worship? NO, it is about respect for a religion. It is not required in any way for female tourist to cover themselves when entering a Mosque, it is done out of respect, and frowned upon to not do this, but Muslims will not arrest you or attack you for it. They may ask you to leave, and this is their right.
 
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Wade8813

Registered Member
Of course they will be fined, whether they want to wear it or not it doesn't matter. If they go against the law [willingly or not], someone will be faulty and will have to pay for it.
Right. So a woman is punished for doing something that doesn't affect anyone else, and is a part of her religion and culture? How is that okay?

Well, it's hard to recognize him but I can see the shape of his lips which distinguishes him from the others. If he committed a crime and I had to recognize him without his facial hair/sunglasses/hat, I'd make sure to look at his lips, which clearly make a difference.
I'm pretty sure you're fairly unique if you can identify most people just by their lips.

Why not? You don't see anybody walking down the street with ski masks or Halloween masks, on daily basis..

They use these masks in the appropriate places [when skiing/celebrating]. So there is no reason for them to not be allowed to wear those masks. That's why, being worn temporarily makes a difference. Because if worn on daily basis with no reason, they would become doubtful. [It's like going to the supermarket with the Halloween/ski mask.] Wouldn't you look at them weirdly and start to wonder why?[/quote] My friend occasionally wore a Halloween mask on random days, just because he thought the mask looked cool, and because he thought it was funny. There are many times when it was cold enough outside that lots of people were bundled up enough to be difficult (or impossible) to recognize.

But here's the thing - if masks are a security issue, they'll be a security issue all the time, including Halloween.

I'm 100% behind this.

When going to an islamic country you have to respect their laws i.e ladies cover up and when entering a mosque (as a tourist) cover your head with a scarf.

As they do it other countries should be allowed to do it to them IMO
This is different. France already expects people from other countries to follow France's laws when in France. All countries do.

But that's no reason to make new laws that mostly affect French citizens.
 

Bananas

Endangered Species
Respect is the key word and the one you show little of. If you were Christian would it be respectful to walk into a church on Sunday wearing a demon or devil suit? or wearing a shirt promoting devil worship? NO, it is about respect for a religion.
What about respect for societal norms?

For example if my religion asked of me that I walk around like Adam(ie naked), is society disrespecting my religion by requiring I am clothed in public?


Wade8813; said:
Right. So a woman is punished for doing something that doesn't affect anyone else, and is a part of her religion and culture? How is that okay?
It does affect other people by merely being in their presence. As the example I gave Katrina, if a naked person walked into the room with you, it would most likely be you who feels humility. It is similar with the burka in western society, I live in a fairly multicultural part of the world and see all sorts of people from all walks of life, but seeing people where they are absent of any definable feature is an uncomfortable sight. The lack of identity is a problem that affects others.

People have made the ridiculous comparison to ski masks or Halloween masks but these are not everyday attire that you wear in the public sphere(ie down the shops). If you did try and wear them down the shops then Im sure the clerk would hit the panic button thinking they were being robbed.
 

Ilus_Unistus

Registered Member
What about respect for societal norms?

For example if my religion asked of me that I walk around like Adam(ie naked), is society disrespecting my religion by requiring I am clothed in public?
I think this is on a completely different level than the point that was being discussed. If your religion wished you to be naked in Church, then I say go naked in Church if it is what you believe in, just as these women are to be covered in a Mosque as was the discussion I was addressing.

I understand these women also walk the streets, markets and anywhere covered from head to toe, and I think this is the point you make with walking in public naked. To this, I first am not aware of any religion that ask its followers to walk around naked in public, but let us say there is. Let us say this religion is 1000's of years old as well.

First as with all religions I can think of, progressions and adaptations have been made to with the passings of time. (ie not killing people based on different religious views etc...) I would think being naked in public would also have made this adaptation as to my knowledge every country has indecent exposure laws in place, except in certain areas such as beaches etc., where as I know of no country that has a "your wearing to much" law.


Here are examples of what will be acceptable to wear in France.

Pamala Anderson shopping ...IN FRANCE!



Products for sale in most of Europe






But a Muslim woman in a Burqa is different how again?




This shows me that if all the above (besides the Burqa) are acceptable to wear in public in France, but the Burqa is not? Then this is nothing but a religious statement France is making who has no right to do this as they have a Freedom OF religion law.
 
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