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France - The final step to ban Burka

icegoat63

Son of Liberty
V.I.P.
Is it also illegal for a non-Muslim to wear a scarf over their face when it's really cold out? Or to wear a ski mask when doing something like, I don't know, skiing? Or what about wearing a mask on Halloween?
Muslims are bound by the Qur'an to not celebrate Halloween.

And from what little bit of Research I've done... this is fine;



this is not;



Unless this Ban includes Niqabs to. In which case picture number one is also banned.
 

Mirage

Secret Agent
Staff member
V.I.P.
Are they banning ski masks and other face covering winter hats as well "for security?" What about large sunglasses and thick beards?

This is a bad move and an invasion of privacy if you ask me. Clothing should not be controlled by the government.
 

icegoat63

Son of Liberty
V.I.P.
Are they banning ski masks and other face covering winter hats as well "for security?" What about large sunglasses and thick beards?
I dont believe its For Security... I havent seen an Article yet posted here that said it was. The "For Security" was a GF Member provided theory...

I did however find the article on page 2 of this thread that has Sarkozy quoted saying the ban is for Sexual Tolerance in and Subjugating Women France. That;

“The burka is a prison, it’s a straitjacket”

“It is not a religious insignia but the insignia of a totalitarian political project that advocates inequality between the sexes and which is totally devoid of democracy.”
Sarkozy, Feminism, & the Burqa {?????} ThickCulture
So from that perspective, I see this about as equal as a Country banning the use of Slaves under the idea; "In this country, we will not and should not tolerate it". Effected immigrant Society might use Slaves regularly and see no problem with it, but in this country we do not and we feel you Slave Users are in the wrong.

To me this is the same. Its Sarkozy saying "we believe in Equality in all humans, Male or Female, and we will not tolerate this blatant sexism"
 

EllyDicious

made of AMBIGUITY
V.I.P.
What about large sunglasses and thick beards?

.
Still, you can't compare these with the Burka. No matter how thick your beard is or how large your sunglasses are, you're still able to identify the man standing behind them.
While wit the Burka, you can't identify these women. It's very impossible because you can't see the form of their faces and what their image could be like.
 

Bubbles

I ♥ Haters
Pardon me if I'm wrong, but couldn't Muslim women just wear a hijab? As far as I'm aware, in the religion, a hijab lets them retain their modesty without covering the face.
Doesn't that depend on which Muslim Sect there from? I could be wrong, so please correct me if I am. But I think different sects have different rules for their women or something along those lines.

I'm kind of torn between the issue. I support them in the sense that they do need to know whose under the Burka, but at the same time if France has the freedom to practice religion, it makes me feel like they're violating these people's right to practice.
 

CaptainObvious

Son of Liberty
V.I.P.
There are a other reasons to, take this one for example;



At first glimpse on this I'd say the French are out of line, how dare they ban a religious garb. But then I googled what a Burka was and found this;


If thats true and a Burka is a 100% concealing veil and! Not the only veil to choose from, then its not so bad of a decision.
See, that's another issue I was thinking about. Is France doing this because it implies a subservience to men? Something that may seem common in Saudi Arabia but not France. IF one of the reasons is because of that then I am leaning towards agreeing with France on this.
 

Ilus_Unistus

Registered Member
The Burka for Muslim women ARE in fact a part of their religion as shown by this quote from the Koran:

"And say to the faithful women to lower their gazes, and to guard their private parts, and not to display their beauty except what is apparent of it, and to extend their headcoverings (khimars) to cover their bosoms (jaybs), and not to display their beauty except to their husbands, or their fathers, or their husband's fathers, or their sons, or their husband's sons, or their brothers, or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their womenfolk, or what their right hands rule (slaves), or the followers from the men who do not feel sexual desire, or the small children to whom the nakedness of women is not apparent, and not to strike their feet (on the ground) so as to make known what they hide of their adornments. And turn in repentance to Allah together, O you the faithful, in order that you are successful"


I can not find a single recorded case of a Muslim woman who ever felt "forced" to wear a Burka, most in fact WANT to wear them out of respect for their religion.

Everyone is leaning towards these women are forced to wear these things by men, it is simply not true. It is no different than a Jewish man wearing a Yakima, it IS a choice any Muslim woman can choose.

I still think more than ever this is purely the French government singling out Muslims and doing what little they can to show disapproval for them. Maybe Catholic Priests should not wear Robes, they might be concealing a weapon under it... this is totally a religious statement. I do not believe in any religion, but I do believe if a government has a freedom of religion law, like France, then this is to include ALL religions end of story.
 

CaptainObvious

Son of Liberty
V.I.P.
The Burka for Muslim women ARE in fact a part of their religion as shown by this quote from the Koran:

"And say to the faithful women to lower their gazes, and to guard their private parts, and not to display their beauty except what is apparent of it, and to extend their headcoverings (khimars) to cover their bosoms (jaybs), and not to display their beauty except to their husbands, or their fathers, or their husband's fathers, or their sons, or their husband's sons, or their brothers, or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their womenfolk, or what their right hands rule (slaves), or the followers from the men who do not feel sexual desire, or the small children to whom the nakedness of women is not apparent, and not to strike their feet (on the ground) so as to make known what they hide of their adornments. And turn in repentance to Allah together, O you the faithful, in order that you are successful"


I can not find a single recorded case of a Muslim woman who ever felt "forced" to wear a Burka, most in fact WANT to wear them out of respect for their religion.
Do we really know since women have been generally in that culture subservient to men and thus can't speak out against wearing them out of fear? And there have been woman who have discontinued wearing them in the West and only wore them because they felt forced.

Everyone is leaning towards these women are forced to wear these things by men, it is simply not true. It is no different than a Jewish man wearing a Yakima, it IS a choice any Muslim woman can choose.
I wouldn't be so sure that they are all wearing them by choice.

I still think more than ever this is purely the French government singling out Muslims and doing what little they can to show disapproval for them. Maybe Catholic Priests should not wear Robes, they might be concealing a weapon under it
They don't wear robes out in public. Besides, a robe doesn't imply subservience to another gender.

... this is totally a religious statement. I do not believe in any religion, but I do believe if a government has a freedom of religion law, like France, then this is to include ALL religions end of story.
If it is a total religious statement then I agree with you 100%.
 
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Ilus_Unistus

Registered Member
I have spent some time now researching articles and interviews about This French law and about why Muslim women wear a Burqa. Here is my conclusions.

The French Law: This thread is misleading, it is not ONLY a ban on Muslim Berqa's, it also includes Jewish skullcaps and large Christian crosses to be worn/displayed in public places. (much like Estonia's Freedom FROM Religion laws, only France still maintains a Freedom OF Religion Law, with these new proposed conditions... yes, I think is ridiculous as well, but this IS the French we are speaking about lol.)

Reasoning: To keep a separation of Religion and State mainly in school settings. Security was also an issue mentioned for the Berqa, but is unclear if this was the main reasoning for adding the Muslim Berqa.


Muslim woman forced to wear Berqa's by men? : Absolutely NOT. I have watched perhaps 15 Youtube video's, and 12 interview articles of Muslim women from all over the world speaking on this, ALL say it is done out of respect for their culture and the religion of Islam. The ONLY submission involved for wearing them is the submission to Allah and very rarely to men. The covering of a woman's face in Islam is subject to where this woman comes from. Some places interpret the covering of a woman to include the face, some do not, this is subject to interpretation of the Koran by different cultures. (I can post any videos or articles on request, but there were so many, all saying the same thing, and so easily found I did not see the point.)

I can not find a single instance of a recorded case of any Muslim women making claims they were forced to wear a Berqa by a man. The ONLY articles that imply this are anti-Muslim media propaganda.
 
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Wade8813

Registered Member
Both of these are temporary and can't be compared to a Burka. I understand your example but with a scarf you're not going to cover your whole face. You'll just make it look like you've worn Hijab which lets you show [at least ] your eyes.
You don't use the scarf to cover your eyes, do you?

More or less, the same goes for the halloween or skiing masks. They are kept just one night and everyone is allowed to wear them.
Why does it matter if it's temporary or not? Would France make it illegal if some 6 year old kid wanted to wear their Halloween mask every day?

According to Wikipedia -
The burqa is usually understood to be the woman's loose body-covering (Arabic: jilbāb), plus the head-covering (Arabic: ḥijāb, taking the most usual meaning), plus the face-veil (Arabic: niqāb).​
So the face veil is often considered a part of it.

But even if it wasn't, so what? If a person walked in, and all I could see was their eyes, I probably wouldn't be able to recognize them. And they're fairly equivalent religious symbols.

Muslims are bound by the Qur'an to not celebrate Halloween.
Doesn't matter - if ANYONE in France is legally allowed to celebrate Halloween by wearing a mask, then any possible security concerns are moot.

And from what little bit of Research I've done... this is fine;


this is not;


Unless this Ban includes Niqabs to. In which case picture number one is also banned.
Do you think you could identify that first woman if you later saw her with her face uncovered, in a police lineup? I probably couldn't.

I dont believe its For Security... I havent seen an Article yet posted here that said it was. The "For Security" was a GF Member provided theory...

I did however find the article on page 2 of this thread that has Sarkozy quoted saying the ban is for Sexual Tolerance in and Subjugating Women France.

So from that perspective, I see this about as equal as a Country banning the use of Slaves under the idea; "In this country, we will not and should not tolerate it". Effected immigrant Society might use Slaves regularly and see no problem with it, but in this country we do not and we feel you Slave Users are in the wrong.

To me this is the same. Its Sarkozy saying "we believe in Equality in all humans, Male or Female, and we will not tolerate this blatant sexism"
The problem is that if any women WANT to wear it, then it's not allowed.

Still, you can't compare these with the Burka. No matter how thick your beard is or how large your sunglasses are, you're still able to identify the man standing behind them.
That's usually not true. Often at work I've asked had trouble identifying customers while looking at their ID and comparing it to them, and that was only with moderate facial hair. A guy who grows out a giant beard and sunglasses is pretty much completely unrecognizable if he the shaves it off.

I can not find a single recorded case of a Muslim woman who ever felt "forced" to wear a Burka, most in fact WANT to wear them out of respect for their religion.
Indian Students DEMAND Teachers Wear Burqas


Some updates and related news:
The ban on burqas and niqabs will go in September to the Senate, where it also is likely to pass. Its biggest hurdle will likely come after that, when France's constitutional watchdog scrutinizes it. Some legal scholars say there is a chance it could be deemed unconstitutional.
France BURQA BAN: French Parliament Approves Ban On Face Veils


Spain's Parliament on Tuesday rejected a proposal to ban women from wearing in public places Islamic veils that reveal only the eyes.

However, the Socialist government has said it favors including a ban on people wearing burqas in government buildings in an upcoming bill on religious issues to be debated after parliament's summer vacation break.
Spain Rejects Burqa Ban - For Now



Syria has forbidden the country's students and teachers from wearing the niqab – the full Islamic veil that reveals only a woman's eyes – taking aim at a garment many see as political. The ban shows a rare point of agreement between Syria's secular, authoritarian government and the democracies of Europe: Both view the niqab as a potentially destabilizing threat.
Syria Bans Full Islamic Veils At Universities


 
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