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Politics Crimeans overwhelmingly vote for secession

ReasontoBelieve

Registered Member
So Russia already has 5 time zones. There already a gigantic country. What will they gain by taking over Ukraine? They are are not to be the USSR anymore. The Russians should just leave and tend to their own affairs. The longer the Russians remain the worse it will look for them.
Let's bring peace back to the Ukraine before another Cold War begins.
 

Hilander

Free Spirit
Staff member
V.I.P.
Sounds like to me the people that were against secession stayed away. With all the Russian troops around I don't blame them. So how accurate this vote is remains to be seen.

I doubt if Russia will be satisfied with only Crimea, they have already took over a small town in Ukraine.

This will probably be the beginning of a new cold war at the very least.
 

Dr4gon

Registered Member
V.I.P.
Does anyone read Российская газета? Just so you know its the State owned newspaper of the Kremlin and yeah this is the start of a new cold war.

The EU agreement that Ukraine signed has lots of NATO requirements. If Russia hadnt annexed Crimea then NATO woulda taken over the Russian Navy base and all the other military bases there. The State Duma called it a "very real and serious threat to Russia." They also said that NATO would probably build a missile base in Kharkov. Thats why Russian troops are massing on the eastern Ukraine border.

Russia will never back down unless Ukraine is declared to be a neutral country that doesnt support NATO military bases. If they dont then the Ukraine crisis will not end well and there will be a cold war.

Btw Crimea was given to Ukraine by Khrushchev without a referendum for the Crimean people. Was that legit? Crimea has been a part of Russia since the period of the Tsars and dont forget the Battle of Sevastopol that let Russia keep it.

Anyway if you read Российская газета you will see how serious the crisis really is. Its a lot more serious than the western media is saying.
 

Sim

Registered Member
Does anyone read Российская газета? Just so you know its the State owned newspaper of the Kremlin and yeah this is the start of a new cold war.

The EU agreement that Ukraine signed has lots of NATO requirements. If Russia hadnt annexed Crimea then NATO woulda taken over the Russian Navy base and all the other military bases there. The State Duma called it a "very real and serious threat to Russia." They also said that NATO would probably build a missile base in Kharkov. Thats why Russian troops are massing on the eastern Ukraine border.

Russia will never back down unless Ukraine is declared to be a neutral country that doesnt support NATO military bases. If they dont then the Ukraine crisis will not end well and there will be a cold war.

Btw Crimea was given to Ukraine by Khrushchev without a referendum for the Crimean people. Was that legit? Crimea has been a part of Russia since the period of the Tsars and dont forget the Battle of Sevastopol that let Russia keep it.

Anyway if you read Российская газета you will see how serious the crisis really is. Its a lot more serious than the western media is saying.
Unfortunately, I'm not capable of reading the Rossijskaja Gazeta or other Russian sources, because I don't speak Russian. But I'd love to read a Russian perspective.

Can you please explain what makes you think the situation is worse than the Western media suggests?

Oh, and as for your disagreement about the alleged lack of free media in Russia: Of course I'm no expert, but if you followed the report about the media situation in Russia over the past decade, you could read many unfortunate news. Of course the situation in Russia is not as obvious and blatant as in totally state controlled countries such as Iran or North Korea, but still, you cannot report freely anymore in Russia. Step by step, the Kremlin has acquired more and more previously independent media, so that about 80% of the media and almost 100% of the "mainstream media" (the most read and watched) is controlled by the Kremlin. Independent journalists are physically threatened, beaten up and even murdered. Independent internet sites and blogs are closed down by the government under the pretext of "treason" or "hate speech". That happened to basically all pages critical towards Russia's actions in the Ukraine crisis in the past weeks.

You can see that when you read independent reports about freedom of press, both by the UN and human right organizations such as Amnesty International or Human Rights Watch, Reporters Without Borders and so on.

The same when it comes to political opposition: Except for the relatively stable, but small Communist Party, there is no opposition to Putin in the parliament. The second major party (the more "social democratic" one) is not a genuine opposition, but was founded and is controlled by Putin and his party too, much like the fake "opposition" parties in the East European East Bloc countries were totally communist controlled -- and they vote with Putin in basically all important decisions. Real independent parties are usually not allowed to run in elections, because the registration is denied with silly formal pretenses.

What we're seeing in Russia is the mere illusion of free press and democracy. In reality, this is just a facade and Putin is pulling all strings. The opposition is allowed, even encouraged to voice very mild, not fundamental disagreement -- but true, genuine disagreement is silenced and attacked and pushed under the rug.

Western observers coined the term "directed democracy" for such a kind of fake democarcy that is not more than a Potemkin Village.
 

Dr4gon

Registered Member
V.I.P.
Unfortunately, I'm not capable of reading the Rossijskaja Gazeta or other Russian sources, because I don't speak Russian. But I'd love to read a Russian perspective.

Can you please explain what makes you think the situation is worse than the Western media suggests?

Oh, and as for your disagreement about the alleged lack of free media in Russia: Of course I'm no expert, but if you followed the report about the media situation in Russia over the past decade, you could read many unfortunate news. Of course the situation in Russia is not as obvious and blatant as in totally state controlled countries such as Iran or North Korea, but still, you cannot report freely anymore in Russia. Step by step, the Kremlin has acquired more and more previously independent media, so that about 80% of the media and almost 100% of the "mainstream media" (the most read and watched) is controlled by the Kremlin. Independent journalists are physically threatened, beaten up and even murdered. Independent internet sites and blogs are closed down by the government under the pretext of "treason" or "hate speech". That happened to basically all pages critical towards Russia's actions in the Ukraine crisis in the past weeks.

You can see that when you read independent reports about freedom of press, both by the UN and human right organizations such as Amnesty International or Human Rights Watch, Reporters Without Borders and so on.

The same when it comes to political opposition: Except for the relatively stable, but small Communist Party, there is no opposition to Putin in the parliament. The second major party (the more "social democratic" one) is not a genuine opposition, but was founded and is controlled by Putin and his party too, much like the fake "opposition" parties in the East European East Bloc countries were totally communist controlled -- and they vote with Putin in basically all important decisions. Real independent parties are usually not allowed to run in elections, because the registration is denied with silly formal pretenses.

What we're seeing in Russia is the mere illusion of free press and democracy. In reality, this is just a facade and Putin is pulling all strings. The opposition is allowed, even encouraged to voice very mild, not fundamental disagreement -- but true, genuine disagreement is silenced and attacked and pushed under the rug.

Western observers coined the term "directed democracy" for such a kind of fake democarcy that is not more than a Potemkin Village.
Yeah the language barrier has been a huge problem since I cant post any links that other members can read. And sometimes translations bite too. For example when the media translated the Syria op-ed into English it was totally different than the original op-ed in Russian. They probably used the google translator Lol!

Anyway this is the Russian perspective and why I believe the crisis is worse than people here know.

1. The State Duma believes that the US/EU created the Ukraine crisis.
2. No way will they accept any solution except the Federalization of Ukraine.
3. Imo if Russia doesnt get what it wants then the troops on the Ukraine border will.
4. The State Duma has ordered that careful studies be made of successful USSR isolationist strategies.
5. The State Duma has been making plans to shift the Russian economy to Asian markets.
6. Its now illegal in Russia for banks to deal in US currency.
7. President Putin increased the annual military budget by $50 billion and theres been a lot in the Russian media about new military conscription policies.
8. The State Duma laughed at the sanctions.
9. President Putin and members of the State Duma have started accounts in the bank that was sanctioned (Rossiya).

I got that perspective from the Russian media but also from talking to my friends in Ukraine and Russia. But theres nothing in that list that wasnt also in Rossiyskaya gazeta.

Btw never tell a native Russian that Russia is a democracy. Communism and Democracy are both considered to be insults in Russia. The Russians already proved what would happen if they didnt like the government around 1914 and 1990. If they dont like it now then they will change it but thats for them to decide not us.

About freedom of speech in Russia. This is from the Moscow Times.
Kerry and Lavrov Meet on Ukraine | News | The Moscow Times

The author is obviously suspicious of future annexations and he even called the Crimean annexation a "takeover".


Also President Putins pet project is Russia Today. He gave it unlimited funding. One of the hosts (Abby Martin) tells viewers that she is opposed to the Crimea annexation. The management doesnt agree but they let her talk about it.

About Abby Martin, Liz Wahl and media wars ? RT Op-Edge


Yeah theres probably censoring and I know theres propaganda but I havent decided yet if its more censoring and propaganda than Ive seen in other media sources. Its like football. Everybody wants people to think that their team owns.
 
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Dr4gon

Registered Member
V.I.P.
@ Sim.
Since you wanted to see the Russian perspective Im adding this. I found 2 articles last night in Rossiyskaya gazeta and Komsomolskaya Pravda that were really interesting and another article in the New York Times.

1. From both Russian media sources. At the international East Forum in Berlin, First Deputy Prime Minister of Russia Igor Shuvalov said that Russia wont be making any more retaliatory sanctions against the US or the EU but that Russia wont allow new sanctions to affect Russian policy.
That last part about sanctions not affecting Russian policy may be why Kerry called Lavrov and invited him to a meeting with the EU and Ukraine. Lavrov is still pushing Federalization as the only solution in Ukraine.

2. Anti-Western sentiment is getting worse in Russia. Today deputies of the State Duma appealed to the Prosecutor General Yuri Chaika to declare the collapse of the USSR illegal and to bring to justice everyone responsible including former President Mikail Gorbachev. The signers included members of the United Russia party (similar to Republicans). Its like that scene in the movie Брат 2 but in real life.
Just so you know, President Putin is a member of the United Russia party. The other most powerful party in Russia is the Liberal Democratic party (similar to Democrats).
I seriously doubt that anything happens with that petition but it was interesting that it even happened.

I also found a really interesting analysis of what Russia may do next in the New York Times.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/10/w...influence-not-invasion-analysts-say.html?_r=0
 
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