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Burning Korans, Poppies & Flags - Hatred or Protest?

Pugz

Ms. Malone
V.I.P.
I'm not sure where to put this - so it's going here.

A few weeks ago, Muslim radicals burned Poppies during a two minute silence in respect for our fallen soldiers, past and present. They received no punishment.

Sick protesters torch poppy | The Sun |News

Recently, a young girl has been held on 'suspicion of inciting religious hatred' after burning an English translated Koran in her school and posting a video of it on Facebook.

Facebook girl is held for burning Koran | The Sun |News

What's the difference between Muslims burning our Poppies, Flags, pictures of our leaders, religious items etc, and us burning a copy of their Koran?

Armistice Day is an important day to us.
The Flag is important to both the US and UK.
The Koran is important to Muslims.

Why do they get to make a bigger stink about it? Why, when it's something against them, is it hatred; but only a protest against us?

I don't know how many Brits on here were offended by the news of the Poppy burning, but I was; my granddad fought in the war, my aunt is former RAF, her husband still serves and my other uncle is in the TA.

I don't like the thought of a group of people, no matter how small, burning something important to us, during a day of respect, on the street and getting away with it; while a girl does burns a Koran, without any real reason behind it, and being arrested for 'inciting religious hatred'. :mad:
 
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Wade8813

Registered Member
I think it's a lot like race issues. There are many people who are violently offensive about a race, and there are others who walk on eggshells to avoid hurting anyone's feelings.

While military things often have a lot of significance, it's usually a bit less fervent than religion, and there's less controversy (and thus less need people getting riled up for or against it).

(BTW, I don't understand what this poppy thing is - could you explain it?)
 

Sim

Registered Member
It's true that many Muslims have serious hate issues, but what's really worrying me is how easily many non-Muslims in Europe and America take the ball and pay it back with the same coin. Aren't we supposed to be better, and don't we have problems with Muslims, because some of them do just that?

I'm really worried by islamophobia in Europe and America. As I see it, it's not fundamentally different from classic anti-Semitism in the 1930s and before, and we all know what that finally resulted in.

Some may say "naw, the Jews back then did not commit terrorist acts and didn't burn our flags, so the analogy is flawed", but IMHO, this way of looking at it misses the point. That's because it's definitely not "the Muslims" who did and do all that. It's radicals among the Muslims. And broad-brushing and stereotyping them, blaming all Muslims for the deeds of a few radicals (which may be of a considerable number, but still) is not fundamentally different from blaming all Jews alike for allegedly being greedy, for sticking to their own kind, for not being patriotic and so on.

The "yeah, but they do ..." includes this generalization and broad-brushing already, even when it's true certain Muslims do this or that, and that's the problem.

"I don't like Jews, because they're rich and stick to themselves" is usually considered a racist stereotype, although there are Jews who fit that description without any doubt. "I don't like blacks, because they live off welfare and are criminal" is a racist stereotype as well, although there are quite a few blacks who fit that description without any doubt. And most people understand that, and recognize this racism for what it is, and voicing such racist stereotypes is a taboo, for good reason.

Not so in case of Muslims these days. It's en vogue to hate and stereotype Muslims. Certain far-right people, like Wilders in the Netherlands or the Tea Party in America (who even invite European islamophobes like Wilders as speaker for their rallies), openly compare Quran to "Mein Kampf", Islam to Nazism and propose book burnings (and as we all know, where they burn books, they will also, in the end, burn human beings).

Are there Muslims who do the same with Western symbols and ideas? Are there Muslim terrorists? Without any doubt. There are also Jews who are greedy and stick to their own kind, and there are lazy blacks who live off other peoples' money and engage in gang violence. But many do not, and that's the point.

I'm not saying this is no problem with islamist extremism. Also, I am not saying there is no problem with certain attitudes of Muslim immigrants in Western countries. All nice and fine, and these problems must be addressed. I just believe hateful rants, stereotyping and book burnings is neither an appropriate, nor helpful way to address these problems. Just like the Ku Klux Klan or a neo-Nazi rally is neither an appropriate nor helpful means when it comes to addressing the problem of poverty and violence among blacks.

As I see it, islamophobia is the new anti-Semitism. Replace "Jews" or "blacks" with "Muslims", and you got the exact same thing, the same old story. That many Muslims are not a good example, and engage in the same kind of behavior towards Westeners is not an excuse.
 

CaptainObvious

Embrace the Suck
V.I.P.
I disagree that this is an islamaphobia issue. Not just in America but everywhere including the Middle East we see American flag burning, the burning of effigies of people like George Bush, the burning of Bibles..and while there might be public outcrys, there are no calls for the death of those that do these things. Obviously that isn't the case with burning the Koran, making a cartoon of Mohammed, writing a book criticizing Islam...just calling those that do these things bigots completely misses the point.

I agree with Pugz' point, everyone should be treated the same in regards to the burning or the showing of disrespect towards certain objects.
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What's the difference between Muslims burning our Poppies, Flags, pictures of our leaders, religious items etc, and us burning a copy of their Koran?
The difference is if you complain about them burning something dear to you you are labeled an islamophobe, likewise if you burn something dear to them you are labeled an islamophobe.
 
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ExpectantlyIronic

e̳̳̺͕ͬ̓̑̂ͮͦͣ͒͒h̙ͦ̔͂?̅̂ ̾͗̑
We hold ourselves to higher standards. As it should be.
 

Pugz

Ms. Malone
V.I.P.
I think it's a lot like race issues. There are many people who are violently offensive about a race, and there are others who walk on eggshells to avoid hurting anyone's feelings.

While military things often have a lot of significance, it's usually a bit less fervent than religion, and there's less controversy (and thus less need people getting riled up for or against it).

(BTW, I don't understand what this poppy thing is - could you explain it?)
A poppy is a small, plastic flower we wear around remembrance day, and people in high social standards (like the PM and Queen) lay wreaths made of poppies on town memorials; its a kind of way we tribute and remember those who died in the world war.

I disagree that this is an islamaphobia issue. Not just in America but everywhere including the Middle East we see American flag burning, the burning of effigies of people like George Bush, the burning of Bibles..and while there might be public outcrys, there are no calls for the death of those that do these things. Obviously that isn't the case with burning the Koran, making a cartoon of Mohammed, writing a book criticizing Islam...just calling those that do these things bigots completely misses the point.

I agree with Pugz' point, everyone should be treated the same in regards to the burning or the showing of disrespect towards certain objects.
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The difference is if you complain about them burning something dear to you you are labeled an islamophobe, likewise if you burn something dear to them you are labeled an islamophobe.
I hate how this word 'islamaphobe' has suddenly popped up out of nowhere and how it's a catch 22.

It's just disgusting seeing them getting away with things; a group raided a court room during a trial, an Asian woman stabbed a local MP because he backed the war. The raiders were let off.

Yet lately, i'm seeing student protesters being cracked around the head and arrested for 'disturbing the peace'.
 

Sim

Registered Member
I disagree that this is an islamaphobia issue. Not just in America but everywhere including the Middle East we see American flag burning, the burning of effigies of people like George Bush, the burning of Bibles..and while there might be public outcrys, there are no calls for the death of those that do these things.
Of course there are. There are plenty of Americans who advocated "bombing their places into the ground" or "turning Arabia into glass" on the right. Out of 20 Americans, you will easily find at least one who says things like that. And you find some ready to celebrate Quran burnings. Doesn't strike me as anymore civilized than what the islamist nuts are doing.

The last right-wing US government even started two wars, resulting in the death of many more Muslim civilians than have ever been killed by the hands of islamist extremists.

You may agree with these wars (I also support the Afghanistan war), but you can't say we (the West) have not killed in the fight against these extremists and called for the death of some (often without fair process).

And you certainly can't say the rigt-wing blogosphere and right-wing mainstream media is just pointing to existing problems with radical islamists in a level-headed manner -- no, there is a huge lot of genuine islamophobic hatred, broad generalizations and genuine islamophobia.

"Islamophobia" is not just an inappropriate label invented by some left-wing PC police, although it's true this label sometimes gets in the way of a necessary debate, and is used too easily -- but in many cases, this label couldn't be more appropriate. Rabid anti-Muslim hatred is socially acceptable and very common on the right.

The difference is if you complain about them burning something dear to you you are labeled an islamophobe, likewise if you burn something dear to them you are labeled an islamophobe.
No, that's a strawman. Nobody has ever accused you or anybody else of "islamophobia", just because you complain certain Muslims burn things that are dear to you.

You get called an islamophobe when you claim that Muslims in general do that, and when you hold their entire religion responsible, and blame all 1.2 billion Muslims for it. You said: "... them burning something ...". Who is this "them"? If you make this a matter of Islam in general, you are indeed an islamophobe.
 
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PretzelCorps

Registered Member
I don't think it's race or Islamiphobia.

The girl was an individual on Facebook, not a troupe hiding behind a banner of protest and the right of free speech. That makes her easily prosecutable and them an immensely tougher target. If you arrest protesters, you face an unending political backlash, regardless of how obvious it might be, because politicians and anti-authority types have no scruples about anything; it gives fuel to the political opposition to smear you all over the pavement, and the anti-authority thugs just another reason to demand the jobs of and further harass, needlessly, the police officers involved.

If this had been a Muslim girl on Facebook burning poppies, we'd have probably never heard about her arrest.
 
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Sim

Registered Member
I hate how this word 'islamaphobe' has suddenly popped up out of nowhere and how it's a catch 22.

It's just disgusting seeing them getting away with things; a group raided a court room during a trial, an Asian woman stabbed a local MP because he backed the war. The raiders were let off.

Yet lately, i'm seeing student protesters being cracked around the head and arrested for 'disturbing the peace'.
And I am deeply disgusted by people who can't make the difference between radical Muslim nuts and Muslims in general, as you seem to do.

It's sickening. 6 million Jews had to die for that kind of thinking. But people haven't learnt the least bit from history.

But is it really so hard to get?

When a non-Muslim Westener burns Quran, he is either considered just an a-hole by some, or even applauded by a right-wing mob. But nobody blames the Western way of life, or Christianity. When a Muslim does a similar thing, that's considered proof the entire religion of Islam and all Muslims are evil and the enemy. Talk about a double standard.
 
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Pugz

Ms. Malone
V.I.P.
I do know the difference, but unfortunately the majority are outweighing the minority.
 
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