Bill Kristol on Iraq, back in the long, long ago.

Discussion in 'Politics & Law' started by fleinn, Feb 15, 2008.

  1. fleinn

    fleinn 101010

    This Modern World Blog Archive The Lost Bill Kristol Tapes
    So go read it, and watch the c-span segment with Ellsberg schooling Bill on american history. Enjoy :)

    After that: has anything changed since then?

  2. Van

    Van Heavy Weapons Guy V.I.P.

    Interesting debate. I wouldn't say that Ellsberg won, but they both had good points.

    It would be interesting to see them debate again today. I wonder if any of their opinions have changed.
  3. Doc

    Doc Trust me, I'm The Doctor. V.I.P.

    So will we get to hear this "masterpiece"?
  4. fleinn

    fleinn 101010

    I don't know - it's interesting to hear what the arguments were in 2003, no? And I'm not sure what exactly has changed - the dynamic is pretty much the same - either major political block believes it's perfectly fine to torture and have wars of choice - they only differ on the circumstances, where neither of them really could relate these circumstances to reality. Instead of simply substituting something they call a "world- view", which in essence is a standing justification for unlimited foreign intervention - economically and militarily.

    Even if Ellsberg introduces a secondary argument - that it's ridiculous to believe that the great US has the power to change governments and large dynamics by military force. While explaining that the arrogance involved is not a new phenomenon - it's a recurring theme throughout american history. And I would add, european before that.

    So it's an old tune. And I'd rather want to hear that new beatles- record. But it's a curious problem. At this point it's political mainstream that the US should intervene in various unspecific forms - like it has always been. But it's unclear what sort of restraints are involved - when it comes to internal affairs in other countries, about their governments, about the military's role, about the secretive services - even about torture and the rule of law.

    So to answer the question - Kristol won the debate, hands down. Even if he's wrong about everything, and every premise he based his views on have proven to have been wrong, if not deliberately falsified.

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