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Bachmann: Getting Rid of Minimum Wage?

Merc

Problematic Shitlord
V.I.P.
This story just surfaced and it isn't the first time Bachmann has mentioned changes to minimum wage. Personally, it blows my mind that this would even be in a list of 100 things to consider to help balance the budget. Americans are the lowest they've been in awhile and now she seems to have no problem in pissing all over them.

Look, we have a problem with corporations shipping work over seas (and then getting tax breaks for it, awesome right? It's like getting fucked twice!) but you don't fix it by cutting out the legs from under Americans that can barely live on their current wages. Corporations don't have to be lured back here. Regulations should have been put into place to discourage them from going overseas for work yet those regulations are not there. Workers have rights to and the most basic and inalienable in my mind should be a minimum wage.

Put it this way, our economy is powered solely by you and I, the consumers. Without consumers, business dies. It's simple math. Cutting minimum wage will just allow companies to 'save money' by cutting as much pay as they can from the lower class workers. Then, the next step logically is these people lose their jobs because with lower pay they can't afford to live and eventually run into so many financial issues that they will most likely lose the ability to even show up for work (amongst other reasons they would lose their job). Now said company is going to end up either hiring illegals or moving overseas even more because they need workers and American workers are going to be 'too expensive' because they're going to be expecting a certain pay level appropriate to some standard of living that the company will not be willing to pay.

All in all, I think there's a lot of variables but in the end slashing or cutting minimum wage will hurt people a lot and ultimately, dig us deeper into this economic hole we're in.

Thoughts?
 

Unity

Living in Ikoria
Staff member
When it comes to minimum wage for workers, I think that if it were left up to individual states there would be far too many injustices done for blue collar people. There already are when it comes to minimum wage, which is hardly ever increased if memory serves correctly. It never seems to be on par with the actual costs of living, from what I remember.

I also think Merc raises a good point...if you keep proposing this kind of legislation that hurts the middle/lower class, things are just going to continue to hurt in a consumer economy. I agree with that.
 

Merc

Problematic Shitlord
V.I.P.
When it comes to minimum wage for workers, I think that if it were left up to individual states there would be far too many injustices done for blue collar people. There already are when it comes to minimum wage, which is hardly ever increased if memory serves correctly. It never seems to be on par with the actual costs of living, from what I remember.

I also think Merc raises a good point...if you keep proposing this kind of legislation that hurts the middle/lower class, things are just going to continue to hurt in a consumer economy. I agree with that.
You could almost picture the economy like a car where the tires are the middle/lower classes helping hold up the big machine as they are the true driving force of it all. Legislation that would take away or slash minimum wage would be like take pieces out of the wheel so that we could melt down the pieces and build a sweet spoiler on the back.

Completely unnecessary and bound to cause nothing but problems for everyone else.
 

Kazmarov

For a Free Scotland
Couple points:

-Yes, economics teaches us that the minimum wage does ultimately cause some amount of artificial unemployment.
-However, we live in a country where there should be an expectation for not only a minimum wage but a living wage, that one can survive on, working full time and supporting their family. We are post-industrial, and at some point the comparisons between competing with China end. China has a per-capita GDP that's 1/5th of ours. We could compete with them, if all our workers lived in slums.

Living wage calculator: Living Wage Calculator - Introduction to the Living Wage Calculator

Figure out how much money you realistic need, at minimum, to live in your community. Also, factor in that in a Bachmann-esque America, there would be far less social assistance to people working those low-wage jobs, if her other statements are to believed.
 

dDave

Well-Known Member
V.I.P.
I've always thought minimum wage was an interesting thing.

If you look at the cost of living in a lot of areas it really is not balanced well when you look at the whole country.

U.S. Department of Labor - Wage and Hour Division (WHD) - Minimum Wage Laws in the States

Adjusting minimum wage does nothing because that only makes the cost of living go up. IF an employer has to pay employees more then he will also charge more for his services/product or he will simply cut his stagg. A lot of areas (such as NYC, D.C., and California) are shockingly expensive places to travel to let alone live. The whole system is corrupt.

I think that it would be great to be done with minimum wage but now is not the time to do it, I am not sure of the economics behind it but something tells me that it would make it worse.

Illegal immigration is one problem that is so closely linked to this same issue, we need to get that under control before we can talk about any significant changes to the minimum wage system.
 
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CaptainObvious

Son of Liberty
V.I.P.
Americans are the lowest they've been in awhile
Yet minimum wage is the highest it has ever been.

Coincidence? Nope. Raising minimum wage increases inflation. In today's dollars, the 1960's minimum wage earner made more than today's minimum wage earner.

We can't force companies to use overseas workers. Those kinds of protectionists policies just lead to more inflation, and is ultimately bad for consumers because of less competition. That's what led to the Great Depression.

Corporations want their products bought. Apple wants to see iPads, Wal-Mart wants to sell its products, Ford wants to see cars, for all these to happen, the American consumer needs money. In other words, it's not like corporations want the American consumers poor, quite the opposite actually. Both sides need to stop creating this class warfare and we need common sense policies that benefit America as a whole. Maybe that means eliminating minimum wage, maybe it doesn't. But let's look at it from an honest economic standpoint rather than resorting to "corporations are just greedy".

What has hurt the middle/lower class and one factor in the rise of the cost of living, is minimum wage to begin with.
 

Merc

Problematic Shitlord
V.I.P.
But let's look at it from an honest economic standpoint rather than resorting to "corporations are just greedy".
No one has said that. What has been said is that the way the American business system works creates an environment where employers are largely able to fuck their employees in all sorts of creative ways already and have to in order to keep up with their competition. Political connections and monetary contributions keep many big companies safe and the little guys unprotected.

What has hurt the middle/lower class and one factor in the rise of the cost of living, is minimum wage to begin with.
How?

How does it hurt the economy to set a standard level of pay? Are you honestly suggesting the system would be better off if we just let companies pay their employees whatever they way? You don't see any severe fallout from that sort of deregulation?
 

CaptainObvious

Son of Liberty
V.I.P.
No one has said that. What has been said is that the way the American business system works creates an environment where employers are largely able to fuck their employees in all sorts of creative ways already and have to in order to keep up with their competition. Political connections and monetary contributions keep many big companies safe and the little guys unprotected.



How?

How does it hurt the economy to set a standard level of pay? Are you honestly suggesting the system would be better off if we just let companies pay their employees whatever they way? You don't see any severe fallout from that sort of deregulation?
I'm not suggesting that at all. What I AM saying is minimum wage creates an artificial level of prices, driving prices up. The fast-food joint owner now has to raise the price of his hamburger combo to meet the increase in salaries. That price is not market based, its artificial. So the minimum wage earner now has to pay more for his hamburger.

I'm not suggesting corporations pay whatever they want, I'm only suggesting wages need to be set closer to the market rate. We can't keep raising the cost of production then complain about the raise in prices. One is a natural result of the other.
 

Swiftstrike

Registered Member
Minimum wage is problematic from an economic standpoint, however it is small safety net to workers (very small). I still have a hard time believing that eliminating minimum wage will lower the prices of consumer goods in a beneficial way. In theory it should but I think the present norms of businesses would imply otherwise.

First we have to consider minimum wage jobs or jobs that might be lower than minimum wage. Then we have to consider how many companies employ minimum wage workers AND if those workers should be paid less based on market demand.

Already from that criteria it eliminates a good amount jobs that do not fall into that criteria, in other words minimum wage has no effect on that sector of the market.
Additional several of the jobs that can fall into that sector are being done overseas. Raw materials, production costs, and shipping for a lot of products are not connected to the additional cost of paying an individual at minimum wage since those jobs are still overseas.

If McDonald's gets their raw meat overseas processing in the states is where the additional value will be added to each unit, if there are minimum wage requirements. But how marginal is the value though? Will consumers purchasing a product only save fractions of a penny for each unit? I somehow doubt that if minimum wage was completely removed the prices of hamburger's would lower significantly.

However, there are a lot of illegal employees in our country that work below a state's minimum wage. And it runs parallel with the drug trade. Black markets emerge when their are inefficiencies in the market from demands not being met due to restrictions. Workers that are paid below minimum wage meet the economic needs of their employers just as drug trade meets the economic needs of their customers.

Like most Americans I don't really wan to live next to massive narcotic distributors and their customers, nor do I think it is justifiable to pay an individual below a livable wage because it is conducive to market demands.

The removal of minimum wage would only be marginally beneficial to customers in reducing the artificially inflated price of units for certain products from certain corporations in certain sectors. I don't think it is worth as small percentage of GDP growth to effectively fuck over millions of Americans out of a decent wage. I would need to see some glaring evidence otherwise that corporations would substantially lower their prices to match the market if minimum wage was removed. An example of this would be a case study of a market based industrialized country that does not have minimum wage requirements and has products of the same quality that are lower in price that truly reaches market equilibrium.

Otherwise, there is not a strong argument that justifies the removal of minimum wage from an economic standpoint and all the arguments for its removal are just smoke and mirrors.

I wonder what bachmann thinks about drug trafficking?
 
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C-Mach

Registered Member
Lowering or eliminating the minimum wage would not balance the budget, but it would improve our current economic situation. Wages have been inflated for quite some time.

Corporations don't have to be lured back here. Regulations should have been put into place to discourage them from going overseas for work yet those regulations are not there.
If the laws become too punitive, businesses will either break the law and enter the black market, or they will go out of business. I'm sorry to tell you this, but this is the truth.

Are you honestly suggesting the system would be better off if we just let companies pay their employees whatever they way?
The companies pay what they are willing to pay and what the person selling his labor is willing to sell his labor for. Gee, that's certainly evil, isn't it?
 
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