Alternative historical narratives

[Scott75]

Ok, well, I'm clearly very new hear and feeling it. So um.. what do you guys think about alternate historical narratives, generally known as "conspiracy theories"?

I mainly like talking about what happened on 9/11, but I have entered into other conspiracies as well, such as the JFK assassination, for instance.

 

[Smelnick]

I'm generally not that into "conspiracy" or alternative history as you call it. Mostly because I tend to have larger concerns in my life, than what's going on behind closed doors in the government or what not. When I do come across stories of them though, or if I see a program on TV about them, I am definitely riveted though. It's interesting to see other takes on past events.

 

[Scott75]

I'm generally not that into "conspiracy" or alternative history as you call it. Mostly because I tend to have larger concerns in my life, than what's going on behind closed doors in the government or what not. When I do come across stories of them though, or if I see a program on TV about them, I am definitely riveted though. It's interesting to see other takes on past events.

Cool . Do you believe the official story regarding 9/11? How about the JFK assassination? I'll even ask whether you think any extraterrestrials have been on earth.. it's not a subject I talk about much, but I read a book from an author I respect called "Alien Agenda" and I found the book to be well researched.. and yes, it does support the notion that extra terrestrials have been and continue to be on earth and explores their possible agendas for being here.

 

[Smelnick]

I've never learned much about the JFK assassination, but I have heard some things about the 9/11 stuff. Just rumours during idle conversation. Stuff like how they might have used explosives in the trade centers, and how the pentagon crash was actually a cruise missile. I've never really paid attention to that though.

 

[Jeanie]

copying and pasting from your intro thread

I've also read up a bit on the Trilateral Commission and the Bilderbergers.. they were certainly fairly prominent in the book I read concerning Secret Societies from Jim Marrs titled "Rule by Secrecy". Incidentally, Jim Marrs' first book, titled "Crossfire", which I read in part, is an authorative book concerning the JFK assassination and was one of the 2 books used by Oliver Stone when he was producing his JFK movie, starring Kevin Costner. I've also have heard some of the Freemasons.

I admit, however, that I haven't researched these subjects too much in a while, although I have begun to look a little further into secret organizations recently. What do you think about 9/11? Also, would it be ok if I transferred our conversation over to a thread I've started concerning conspiracy theories in "Other News"?

My ex-husband had both of those Jim Marrs books. I started Rule by Secrecy but I don't think I ended up finishing it. I also glanced through Crossfire; most of Stone's material for the movie came from that. I understand that a lot of it was actually wrong, though, which I found disappointing because I liked to believe that it was all a great big conspiracy. Incidentally, I'm currently reading Stephen King's latest, called 11/22/63. One of the central characters believed Oswald acted alone and is trying to travel back in time to stop him.

I think that more could have been done to stop Bin Laden before 9/11, that he could have been stopped but those in power didn't want to intervene to stop him because they would had to have made waves that would have interfered with a pipeline to a warm water port through Afghanistan and/or Pakistan. I don't believe 9/11 was an inside job, though.

 

[Scott75]

I've never learned much about the JFK assassination,

Ok. I admit that I never got too into it either, probably because it happened before I was even born, although I thoroughly enjoyed Oliver Stone's JFK movie.

but I have heard some things about the 9/11 stuff. Just rumours during idle conversation. Stuff like how they might have used explosives in the trade centers, and how the pentagon crash was actually a cruise missile. I've never really paid attention to that though.

I see. Well, from what I've learned, I doubt it was a cruise missile; I think it was simply explosives. As to the plane that many witnesses state approached the pentagon, I believe it flew over the pentagon at around the time of the explosions, making it look as if the plane had done the damage; a sleight of hand if you will.

There have been numerous videos on the subject from 2 groups that generally work together and that I have found to be quite well researched. The groups are PFT (Pilots for 9/11 Truth) and CIT (Citizen Investigation Team). CIT interviewed more than a dozen eye witnesses on location in Arlington Virginia and came up with a slew of interesting videos on the subject, which can be seen here:
All Videos

Nowadays, they recommend seeing their last video, National Security Alert, but my personal favourite is Lloyde England: Eye of the Storm, simply because I think he was one of the people who aided in the pentagon attack deception. I don't think he was a big player; it seems quite clear that he wasn't. Nevertheless, I found his testimony to be really fascinating.

As to PFT, whose core members are all avionics professionals, from pilots for RADAR experts. They've done 2 good videos on the subject of the Pentagon Attack:
Pandora's Black Box - Chapter Two - Flight Of American 77

9/11: ATTACK ON THE PENTAGON - Official Release

The second of PFT's videos incorporates some video taken from one or more of CIT's videos. I found both to be quite interesting.
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I've also read up a bit on the Trilateral Commission and the Bilderbergers.. they were certainly fairly prominent in the book I read concerning Secret Societies from Jim Marrs titled "Rule by Secrecy". Incidentally, Jim Marrs' first book, titled "Crossfire", which I read in part, is an authorative book concerning the JFK assassination and was one of the 2 books used by Oliver Stone when he was producing his JFK movie, starring Kevin Costner. I've also have heard some of the Freemasons.

I admit, however, that I haven't researched these subjects too much in a while, although I have begun to look a little further into secret organizations recently. What do you think about 9/11? Also, would it be ok if I transferred our conversation over to a thread I've started concerning conspiracy theories in "Other News"?

My ex-husband had both of those Jim Marrs books.

Cool . I had the Rule by Secrecy one, but I've since lost it. I borrowed Crossfire from the library.

I started Rule by Secrecy but I don't think I ended up finishing it.

Ah ok.

I also glanced through Crossfire; most of Stone's material for the movie came from that.

Ok. Wikipedia also mentions that he used Jim Garrison's On the Trail of the Assassins book as well.

I understand that a lot of it was actually wrong, though, which I found disappointing because I liked to believe that it was all a great big conspiracy.

Whoa whoa, where did you get this "understanding" from?

Incidentally, I'm currently reading Stephen King's latest, called 11/22/63. One of the central characters believed Oswald acted alone and is trying to travel back in time to stop him.

Honestly, I don't think Oswald fired a single bullet at JFK. From what I've read, he liked JFK. As he himself stated, I believe he was a Patsy. I certainly believe that Jack Ruby may well have been involved, which is why I believe he was assassinated shortly after his arrest.

I think that more could have been done to stop Bin Laden before 9/11, that he could have been stopped but those in power didn't want to intervene to stop him because they would had to have made waves that would have interfered with a pipeline to a warm water port through Afghanistan and/or Pakistan. I don't believe 9/11 was an inside job, though.

Ah, so you are an alternate conspiracy theory believer (as opposed to the official one), but you're a LIHOP believer; a Let it Happen on Purpose type, instead of what I am, which is a MIHOP believer; a Made it Happen on Purpose type, heh . Have you seen any documentaries regarding 9/11, or read any books on the subject? Jim Marrs has written some regarding 9/11 as well and he essentially believes it was MIHOP...

 

[Babe_Ruth]

I prefer the JFK and 9/11 conspiracy theories, I just find them more interesting. Till this day I believe Oswald worked alone in the assassination of President Kennedy, but I slightly believe 9/11 was an inside job. Yes, I know, it would be really hard to pull of something that big, but for some reason there's just video's that I see that just makes me believe it was an inside job.

 

[Scott75]

I prefer the JFK and 9/11 conspiracy theories, I just find them more interesting. Till this day I believe Oswald worked alone in the assassination of President Kennedy

Hm. Did you see Oliver Stone's JFK movie or read any books concerning the JFK assassination?

but I slightly believe 9/11 was an inside job. Yes, I know, it would be really hard to pull of something that big, but for some reason there's just video's that I see that just makes me believe it was an inside job.

I think there are many good reasons to think so. And yes, it would certainly have been hard to pull off, but if Mossad (Israel's equivalent to the CIA) was involved, I think it would have made it much easier, since they probably wouldn't have felt so bad about killing about 3000 foreigners instead of 3000 of their own countrymen. And it would certainly explain why certain israelies seemed to be so cheerful when the Twin Towers collapsed. A good article on these apparently jubilant israelies, and the fact that some Israelies were actually caught with tonnes of explosives in a truck that was being used by "Urban Moving Systems", that just also happened to be owned by an Israeli, can be found here:
The Five Dancing Israelis Arrested On 9-11

I recently found article regarding Mossad's involvement on 9/11, which I found to be quite interesting as well:
Mossad ran 9/11 Arab "hijacker" terrorist operation

This doesn't mean that no americans were involved; I think that some key people, such as Dick Cheney and probably Donald Rumsfeld and a few other americans were involved, but it seems like Mossad did most of the dirty grunt work.

There's another factor too; some of those who may well have been involved without realizing it may have been killed off around the time that 9/11 actually occurred in order to stop them from talking. I'm thinking of certain individuals from Raytheon who were allegedly killed on the 9/11 planes but may well have been killed before or even after. As wikipedia mentions in its introduction of the firm:
"Raytheon Company (NYSE: RTN) is a major American defense contractor and industrial corporation with core manufacturing concentrations in weapons and military and commercial electronics. It was previously involved in corporate and special-mission aircraft until early 2007."

Further down, in the communication section, it mentions more on its work regarding aircraft:
"Raytheon's Universal Control System (UCS) is an unmanned aerial system (UAS) "cockpit" that improves operator awareness and efficiency, while providing the ability to control multiple unmanned aircraft, and reduce potential accidents.[14]"

I'm not sure if any of you have seen the pilot episode of "The Lone Gunmen", which was a spinoff of the X-Files. If you have, you may well be familiar with the fact that the pilot episode of the show had a plane controlled by remote control crashing into one of the Twin Towers, and also know that this episode was aired about 6 months before 9/11 even occurred. Furthermore, in the episode, those behind this act weren't foreign terrorists, but domestic ones. It talks of War Games, which as some here may know, were indeed taking place on 9/11.. here's a clip of the pilot episode:
The Lone Gunmen Pilot - 9/11 Predictive Programming - YouTube

In the episode, they avert disaster; it makes me think that someone was trying to stop what happened. The thing is, I read somewhere that the person financing the show was someone who was a fairly powerful Israeli; did he know or atleast suspect what was planned and had been trying to stop it by publicizing it? We may never know, but it does leave one to wonder.

 

[Babe_Ruth]

I believe Oswald was disgruntled loner, who was a failure at almost everything he tried, saw an opportunity to impress people that had rejected him, and took it.

I believe that despite all the rumor, "what-if" scenarios, and speculation, that no concrete evidence exists that conclusively proves the existence of a conspiracy.

That's the conclusion I've came up from reading up on it.

 

[Scott75]

I believe Oswald was disgruntled loner, who was a failure at almost everything he tried, saw an opportunity to impress people that had rejected him, and took it.

Alright. But have you seen any of the evidence that suggests that Oswald had little to do with JFK's assassination? I think a good start would be Oliver Stone's JFK movie; more in depth material would be the books it's based on, "Crossfire" and "On the trail of the assassins".

I believe that despite all the rumor, "what-if" scenarios, and speculation, that no concrete evidence exists that conclusively proves the existence of a conspiracy.

I don't know about proof, but I do think there's a lot of concrete evidence that strongly suggests that Oswald was by and large a patsy. Which is why I ask you how much research you've done on the issue.

That's the conclusion I've came up from reading up on it.

Ah ha! So you've read up on it. What, precisely, did you read?