A not so quick question for "pro-life" Christians

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by AteoFou, Aug 14, 2007.

  1. AteoFou

    AteoFou Guest

    If you believe in predestination and that every person is made for a reason, how can you argue that each "baby" "murdered" has been wasted or killed for no reason. Don't they fit into God's plan? God already knows that the baby will be aborted, so, what is the point in "creating" so many babies? I know the last two questions conflict in the way they are asked, but they really are going towards the same thing. Aren't these babies being "created" to be "destroyed"?
     

  2. tipsycatlover

    tipsycatlover Registered Member

    Perhaps God just wanted the mother to know what choice she would make. We do have the ability to make our own choices you know. Perhaps it's like a parent who allows a child to touch that hot stove once, just so they would know what hot is really like.
     
  3. AteoFou

    AteoFou Guest

    So basically, you agree that God is creating babies just to have them aborted because they are predestined that way. That seems a little malicious, if you ask me. Creating babies to have them aborted just to see what the mother will do, even though he already knows?
     
  4. tipsycatlover

    tipsycatlover Registered Member

    If it is malicious to create babies just to have them aborted then it is certainly the parents who are malicious, the mother perhaps the most malicous of all. If God created babies out of thin air just to giggle while the life was sucked out of them, I would tend to agree with you. But that's not the case. The case is, we have two people who engage in sexual activity knowing that a pregancy could occur don't care because they can maliciously kill the child.

    It isn't important that God knows what a person will do. It might be important that the PERSON know what they will do and what they are capable of. Most people have no idea how good, or evil they are until they are in a position to find out.

    It appears you are getting wayyyy to caught up in trying to prove a religious point by setting up scenarious where God is evil,or non existent, because He doesn't act as you think He should. You could stick your finger in the light socket and say God is malicous because He knew I'd get shocked and still allowed me to stick my finger in the lght socket. God doesn't exist, I have never won the megalotto.

    The purpose of adversity is not to make God a better person, it is to make YOU a better person.

    Go talk to some clergy. Pick different demoninations. You can get these issues resolved.
     
  5. Duke1985

    Duke1985 EatsApplePieShitsFreedom

    Not all christians believe in predestination.
     
  6. Alun

    Alun Guest

    This looks like the problem of evil, which is a contentious religious topic, combined with the contentious political topic of a woman's right to an abortion...
    Are you a masochist? :wacko:

    I'm a pro-choice Christian, but the way you're framing the problem of evil is erroneous enough that I'm answering you anyway. God's omniscience wouldn't change individual responsibility. If you kill a person with a hammer, both you and the hammer are responsible. If you order a person to kill another person, both of you are responsible. If God created the world knowing Jane would abort her baby, both God and Jane are responsible for the abortion. Further, predestination and fatalism do not contradict morality unless destiny or fate is understood by people. Destiny isn't presumed to be understood in Christianity; people are morally responsible, according to Christianity, if they decide to have an abortion.

    So your argument doesn't change anything about a pro-lifer's political position.

    As to the religious and philosophical implications of your argument, God is not necessarily malicious if He is omniscient. We experience suffering and are capable of evil because of God, if He exists, but we cannot know whether or not present suffering translates into an ultimate evil. The whole idea of God is that it doesn't; that all of existance is leading towards the kingdom of heaven. So your answer to the problem of evil just depends on your faith in God.
     
  7. bluedog

    bluedog Guest

    Having a child is a "natural" occurrence as God creates the "first"......and then allows what's natural to take its course, He created man and man then procreates....he created the condition of rain, and then nature takes it's course and falls on the just and the unjust. Life is not a matter of predestination as proven by the fact that "salvation" is not a matter of predestination. What makes it sad that one could kill an unborn is the "fact" that which dwells inside man/woman is a part of God, the soul...which clearly exists before actuall birth. God created man by breathing life into him......And according to scripture, Jeremicah 1:5-6......"Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee and before thou camest out of the womb I sanctified thee and I ordained thee a prophet to the nations"......so one must conclude that a "soul" exists before birth, for how can one be known if he does not exist?

    Another thing to consider in the sanctity of unborn human life can be found in Exodus 21: 22......."If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her.....he shall be surely punished......."

    It is a fact, scriptually speaking.....That God is "Omni-potent"...or all powerful as he is the creator and reigns supreme over his creation. If it where not for the natural rules of law that he created along with man we simply would have no free will but would be subject to the control and command of God...but God can not lie...thus we have our free will with the only exceptions being when God goes outside that which is natural to create the first of anything....the first man...the first convenant with man, as he confirms such with "signs and wonder's". Any time God creates he does so "supernaturally" as with the predestination mentioned in Jeremicah with the prophet he created or ordained him before he was even born.......This is the "only" way man has any predestination.....it must be the "will" of the omni-potent creator, in the creation of somethng new or in "signs and wonders" to confirm that which he has created......as with the new testament of the Christ.....as Christ was predestined.....to bring about the salvation of man. BD
     
  8. AteoFou

    AteoFou Guest

    Honestly, this is probably the best reply so far. If you are Christian and don't believe in predestination, although I'm sure it says in the Bible that our lives are predestined, then this question can clearly not be asked to you.

    The only other way around this question is to basically say "I interpret predestination another way". But then again, I guess this is all just interpretation. Bluedog, you mention that Jesus was predestined to bring salvation. How can Jesus' predestination be so literal, but when God "writes the book of our life" he is only doing so "figuratively" or "supernaturally"?

    Alun, I wasn't trying to hit on political implecations, although it is implied with "prolife". I'm really just asking about predestination and babies which are clearly created with no chance to live. Once again, we come down to perspective, which honestly gets rather annoying when discussing religion because someone's perspective can change on a whim. By the way, I'm not a masochist, haha.

    The first part seems to be a stereotypical response from "prolife"rs. I won't get into it now, but it will suffice to say not everyone has sex while thinking "Well, if I get pregnant I can just maliciously murder the cells".
    The second part is just ridiculous. Even I know God wouldn't answer such a pray and now you are just trying to be sarcastic, even know I find it facetious.
    Third part: I'd rather not, haha.
     
  9. bluedog

    bluedog Guest

    The predestination was to bring the "ability" for mankind to be saved(and to conquer the power that sin held over man....death...death of the spirit)....up until the time of Christ man had no salvation due to mankind's sinful nature. The best one could hope for would be for his sins to be carried over form one year to the next by the offering of blood sacrifices as stated under the rules of law in relation to the convenant between man and God before the "Christ" nailed the old law to the cross with the "ulitimate" blood sacrifice, a perfect sinless sacrifical lamb....the lamb of God, thus fulfilling the requirements of the old law with the ordinance that was contrary to man. This did not do away with the promises of the old book nor the teachings thereof in reference to the history of the house of David. It also did not make certain the "individual" salvation of any man as the choice of freewill permits a choice, but what it did do was "offer" salvation to the entirety of mankind and not just the "select" or chosen Hebrews but also the "gentile" or non-jewish......as Christ not only fulfilled the old law but he brought full circle the chance for mankind to be presented back to God in the "perfect" condition in which he was created....sinless, as the blood of Christ washed away the sins of the entire "human race" if one but accepts this act of love in the "spirit" in which it was made by "obeying" the commandments of Christ....not out of legal necessity but out of love and respect for the "Grace" which we now live under. The Book of Life is a "work" in progress, at least for those that still have the "choice" to serve....for with the last breath also comes the end of choice....as we leave this natural world and are either cleaned of our sins or lost form the presence of God for all eternity, as God can not accept back that which he gave...IE the soul...if it is unclean, for sin will not enter into the presence of God. The act of taking an unborn life is not a matter of what happens to the unborn...as it simply goes back to that which created the "soul"....for it remains perfect and God graciouly accepts it back.....the sad part is the "murder" of that soul, an act of injustice made against the "most" innocent life of all....a sinless child with not "ONE" blot of sin in which to be judged......let alone killed. BD
     
  10. Alun

    Alun Guest

    Christianity postulates a God that contains/rules the entire universe, so it's impossible to actually know anything about Him (unless you know somebody who hears voices :p). The only thing left is perspective; that's what faith in an ultimate reality is. What other answer to the problem of evil would you expect besides either "something that isn't God is responsible for the evil" or "the evil isn't ultimate evil"?
     

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